Klosowski's surgical experience

[Sam Flynn]

I don't mean to throw cold water on this thread but I seem to have lost track of its purpose. Is it merely to get an idea of Klosowski's history and experience

Precisely - and only - the latter, CD. Just a dispassionate look at what his medical/surgical experience actually comprised.

By the way do they say smart arse in England?

Indeed, and in other parts of the UK too! Here, a "smart ASS" would be a performing circus beast, or at least a paradox - "ass" meaning "stupid person", rather than "bottom", in the UK. We're fortunate in that we can differentiate between the sounds of the two words... especially handy when it comes to pointing out certain beasts of burden to kids at the pets' zoo

[protohistorian]

He had some scribbled affidavits from small-town doctors, Dave - all of them from before age 21. You'd have thought that he'd have acquired somewhat grander, and more recent, fake credentials had he felt the desire to do so. As it is, arguably the most impressive chitty found in his possession related to permission to enter in the degree of Junior Surgeon - NB: not even a certificate to the effect that he'd succeeded!

A meglomaniac would only accrue what would exist beyond validation. The point of having certificates is to bolster you, and claiming to much is varifiable, a real delusion killer.

[Sam Flynn]

Thankyou Sam,for posting these.Do you know whether there is a biography of Chapman,and if so what the title is?

Hi Nats,

As Stewart has pointed out, such a book doesn't exist, unfortunately.

[Natalie Severn]

He had some scribbled affidavits from small-town doctors, Dave - all of them from before age 21. You'd have thought that he'd have acquired somewhat grander, and more recent, fake credentials had he felt the desire to do so. As it is, arguably the most impressive chitty found in his possession related to permission to enter in the degree of Junior Surgeon - NB: not even a certificate to the effect that he'd succeeded!

......steady on Sam.I have just done an in depth study of how young men went about becoming surgeons here.Certainly up to the mid 19th century that was EXACTLY what happened here.A FIVE year apprenticeship [14 years + or 15 years to 19 or 20,followed by an "approach" to a hospital to undertake a short practical course in surgery.A student wouldnt even be permitted to sit the examination for the next stage unless he had served the five year apprenticeship.Much of which had indeed been cupping and leeching.But obstetrics especially concerning difficult confinements which a midwife couldnt handle , were also a big part of local doctor"s work and the apprentice would assist at these too .If the Royal College of Surgeons hospital accepted you for training this was just the preliminary .After the short practical hospital course you were a qualified "Apothecary"[helpful if you were to become a poisoner] but to progress further the minimum qualification from the hospital course enabled you to continue.

[protohistorian]

......steady on Sam.I have just done an in depth study of how young men went about becoming surgeons here.Certainly up to the mid 19th century that was EXACTLY what happened here.A FIVE year apprenticeship [14 years + or 15 years to 19 or 20,followed by an "approach" to a hospital to undertake a short practical course in surgery.A student wouldnt even be permitted to sit the examination for the next stage unless he had served the five year apprenticeship.Much of which had indeed been cupping and leeching.But obstetrics especially concerning difficult confinements which a midwife couldnt handle , were also a big part of local doctor"s work and the apprentice would assist at these too .If the Royal College of Surgeons hospital accepted you for training this was just the preliminary .After the short practical hospital course you were a qualified "Apothecary"[helpful if you were to become a poisoner] but to progress further the minimum qualification from the hospital course enabled you to continue.

Thank You. I am correct in understanding that this last stage came with some sort of certification?

[Natalie Severn]

Close, but no cigar, Norma. It was the Crown, on Borough High Street, and his wife was Maud Marsh.

Regards,

Mark

I might have know Mark! He moved from the Monument,where he had grown tired of Bessie Taylor and poisoned her in February 1901.When 18 year old Maud Marsh came to work as a barmaid in The Monument in the August of 1901 ,he took up with her.went through another bogus marriage and had moved on to The Crown before Christmas! He"s moving back East you see----can"t stay away!

[Sam Flynn]

......steady on Sam.

Not at all, Nats.

I merely reflect the facts - Rappaport was a village surgeon in a logging town in late 1870s Poland. Beyond that, Klosowski goes to work in a Jewish suburb of Warsaw, and attends a brief course at the Praga Hospital, doing heaven-knows what. Whatever it was, he could not have had anything like the education that a 21-year-old prospective medic from Britain would have enjoyed during that era.

He would not even have had the education of better-off Poles (you mentioned Curie earlier), come to that. Indeed, apart from his apprenticeship with Rappaport, Klosowski only admits to a primary school education anyway. Hardly the sort of person one would expect to have thrived in, or even be admitted to, a truly academic medical course.

[Natalie Severn]

Thank You. I am correct in understanding that this last stage came with some sort of certification?

Hospital work was compulsory.If you wished to stay at the level of a "Licentiate of the Society of Apothecaries",which was the qualification ,you needed only do a hospital training of 6 months.If you wanted to gain Membership of The Royal College of Surgeons, you had to take a year"s hospital training.

Cheers

[protohistorian]

Not at all, Nats.

I merely reflect the facts - Rappaport was a village surgeon in a logging town in late 1870s Poland. Beyond that, Klosowski goes to work in a Jewish suburb of Warsaw, and attends a brief course at the Praga Hospital, doing heaven-knows what. Whatever it was, he could not have had anything like the education that a 21-year-old prospective medic from Britain would have enjoyed during that era.

He would not even have had the education of better-off Poles (you mentioned Curie earlier), come to that. Indeed, apart from his apprenticeship with Rappaport, Klosowski only admits to a primary school education anyway. Hardly the sort of person one would expect to have thrived in, or even be admitted to, a truly academic medical course.

I am not mad at you Sam, I think you are a rockstar!

[Sam Flynn]

I might have know Mark! He moved from the Monument,where he had grown tired of Bessie Taylor and poisoned her in February 1901.When 18 year old Maud Marsh came to work as a barmaid in The Monument in the August of 1901 ,he took up with her.went through another bogus marriage and had moved on to The Crown before Christmas! He"s moving back East you see----can"t stay away!

Before anyone responds to that, I'm sure tongue-in-cheek, post from Natalie, please note the subject of this thread is rather specific to "Klosowski's Surgical Experience". I'd be grateful if we kept it that way - there have been plenty of other Klosowski/Chapman threads that have sprung up in recent weeks where speculation about his subsequent career may be discussed more appropriately.

To be ultra-picky, this discussion isn't even about Chapman as such, for the period relevant to this thread happened some years before he changed his name!

[protohistorian]

Hospital work was compulsory.If you wished to stay at the level of a "Licentiate of the Society of Apothecaries",which was the qualification ,you needed only do a hospital training of 6 months.If you wanted to gain Membership of The Royal College of Surgeons, you had to take a year"s hospital training.

Cheers

So we have Chapman leaving Praga in less than 6 months for what he ostencibly percieved as the better conditions of the russian army?

[Sam Flynn]

Hospital work was compulsory.If you wished to stay at the level of a "Licentiate of the Society of Apothecaries",which was the qualification ,you needed only do a hospital training of 6 months.

Did they take on pupils who'd only attended a primary school, though, Nats?

I'd be very wary of making comparisons with the British system of medical training. To take a deliberate extreme for the purpose of illustration, would we be having this discussion if Klosowski had spent 6 years studying "with zeal" the art of voodoo in Port-au-Prince?

[protohistorian]

So we have Chapman leaving Praga in less than 6 months for what he ostencibly percieved as the better conditions of the russian army?

Sam I started a thread on Praga and the army, between you and nats you have done a remarkable job bringing me up to speed Thank You very much. Would Klosowski have gotten feedback through the hospital that he was no longer welcome?

[protohistorian]

Did they take on pupils who'd only attended a primary school, though, Nats?

I'd be very wary of making comparisons with the British system of medical training. To take a deliberate extreme for the purpose of illustration, would we be having this discussion if Klosowski had spent 6 years studying "with zeal" the art of voodoo in Port-au-Prince?

Maybe if hookers started showing up with shruken heads?

[Natalie Severn]

Not at all, Nats.

I merely reflect the facts - Rappaport was a village surgeon in a logging town in late 1870s Poland. Beyond that, Klosowski goes to work in a Jewish suburb of Warsaw, and attends a brief course at the Praga Hospital, doing heaven-knows what. Whatever it was, he could not have had anything like the education that a 21-year-old prospective medic from Britain would have enjoyed during that era.

He would not even have had the education of better-off Poles (you mentioned Curie earlier), come to that. Indeed, apart from his apprenticeship with Rappaport, Klosowski only admits to a primary school education anyway. Hardly the sort of person one would expect to have thrived in, or even be admitted to, a truly academic medical course.

The prago Hospital had a sterling reputation in Warsaw.I mentioned Marie Curie and Chopin only to demonstrate that not everywhere in Poland was out in the sticks.That Warsaw was a sophisticated city with modern sewer plant systems,good railway links,gas works and quite a grand hospital and strong medical/scientific and cultural tradition.I think you are correct in saying it wasnt as advanced as England/London in 1888 or nearly as wealthy -but its architecture was every bit on a par for design and elegance and it had quite big industrial developments.

How do you know all this contradictory information as FACT? Sam it really is in direct contradiction to all that Philip Sugden says and all that I have read up on Warsaw anyway.Even Swolen ,where Chapman served his apprenticeship was not how you depicted it ,Sam,be honest ,with a single shed and one or two houses etc in that photo you posted.In point of fact it has a very fine 15th century church,a large town square and plenty of fine looking houses around it .It may not have had such houses in the 1880"s but how do you know it didnt ? The Germans raised it to the ground in 1942 as you well know ,and records are few but lots of stuff on Chapman still exists from the Southwark trial.You keep harking on about cupping leeches etc and I know all that,but such 5 year apprenticeships were exactly like that here,and in Wales ,but an apprentice always assisted the local doctor much much more than just that.