Any known physical descriptions of Kidney?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Glenn,

I'm not saying that Kidney should be ruled out on the basis of the Schwartz sighting - that would be nonsense, for the reason you've outlined. But in terms of the extant evidence, the sketch of Kidney doesn't particularly mesh up with the Schwartz description. I'm not drawing any other conclusion beyond that.

Best regards,
Ben

But my point is that the sketch is irrelevant, because the only thing in that skectch that is not totally fitting with schwartz's description is the zise of the moustach and as I tried to explain, witnesses have made much greater errors than that in their descriptions. The fact that Kidney's moustasch appears bigger than the one that Schwartz describes is really a very minor issue and not reliable enough in order to say that Kidney doesn't macth up with Schwartz's description.
And again, we don't even know if Schwartz told the truth or the incident really occurred in the first place anyway.

All the best

[Jeff Leahy]

It seems logical to me Ben...

I am of course aware that Schwartz was not called at the inquest..

However the police on the ground were noones fools, the first thing they would have done was check kidney, who incidently claimed he new the identity of JtR.

The police had a witness, who saw something, who was most probably eventually used to ID Kosminski. If they had any doubt that Kidney may have committed the murder then they would have used him for an ID at that time.

Why if you had any doubt would you not use Schwartz? Are you saying the police were incompetent?

Pirate

[Ben]

Hi Glenn,

I'm not saying that Kidney should be ruled out on the basis of the Schwartz sighting - that would be nonsense, for the reason you've outlined. But in terms of the extant evidence, the sketch of Kidney doesn't particularly mesh up with the Schwartz description. I'm not drawing any other conclusion beyond that.

Best regards,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hej Glenn!

En riktigt God Jul tillönskas dig också! Och ett gott nytt år, förstås!
Lade du märke till att Deckarspalten i Sydsvenska toppade sina julklappstips med din bok...?!

Best regards,
Fisherman

hej Christer,

Jodå, jag noterade det - fick ett tips från Historiska Media. Mycket bra.
Bo Lundin håller stilen.

Trevlig jul.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

My immediate reaction to thewastelandr's original question would be; no, not really. His facial furniture is difficult to interpret as a "small brown moustache", and he seems conspicuosly older than Schwartz's man.

I'm sorry but that's nonsense, Ben.
Anyone with the slightest experience in reading witness testimonies knows that witness descriptions are totally unreliable. Heck, if people can describe people with the wrong clothes or describe a man as cleanshaven when the suspect in fact turned out to have a beard (one of many examples I have come across), then the size of a moustache is clearly a minor issue in comparison. I have seen witnesses get confused over much much more evident details and get it completely off the mark.

And that was the whole point with my previous point: even if you discount Kidney as a suspect (which I don't), then doing so on the basis of the size of the moustache and Schwartz's testimony is not acceptable.

Now - if Schwartz wasn't making it all up, mind you (another issue to consider).

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I think Kidney was well checked out

Oh really?

All the best

[Ben]

I can empathise there, Gareth!

For the role of Peter Warlock, I was required to grow a fairly prolific goatee and moustache, and five weeks growth couldn't produce the desired look.

[Sam Flynn]

His facial furniture is difficult to interpret as a "small brown moustache"...

...ah, but is that the effect of 5 days' growth, Ben? As one who has tried, but signally failed, to "self-assemble" any facial furniture myself, I really don't know

[thewastelandr]

Ben et al,

Thank you for posting that link! I tend to agree with you about the mustache, but we all know the problems with any witness testimony. It's nearly impossible to draw any conclusions from any one witness' interpretation of a person. That was not my intent in posting the question, just thought it would be interesting to compare.

Thanks to everyone for their responses! Very enlightening.

[Ben]

Just for quick reference, here's the image:

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?pid=464&fullsize=1

My immediate reaction to thewastelandr's original question would be; no, not really. His facial furniture is difficult to interpret as a "small brown moustache", and he seems conspicuosly older than Schwartz's man.

Just my 2p.

[Sam Flynn]

I dont want to put a dampner on this guys but if Kidney was BS man is it not probable that Schwartz might have noticed a resemblance?

...if Schwartz ever subsequently saw him, Jeff. He appears not to have been at the inquest, and we don't know whether he'd have seen the drawing in Penny Illustrated. Schwartz's almost total incomprehension of English is a very good reason to doubt whether he, or anyone in his circle, would have had access to the paper.

Schwartz's view of BS was in the dark, of the most fleeting nature, and the illustration appeared in the paper a week or so after the event. With that in mind, I wouldn't say it was probable that Schwartz would have noted a resemblance even if - and it's a big "if" - he saw a copy of the paper.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello all

Looking at Baxter`s summing up of the Stride inquest it does appear that Schwartz was nowhere near the inquest where he may have seen Kidney.

But we should be very confident, even though we have no evidence, that the Detectives would have read Schwartz` statement and the description of Stride`s assailant, and looked very carefully at all Stride`s known male acquaintances.

Yes exactly Jon, especially with Kidney wandering around accusing them of not knowing what they were doing and where they could find JtR..

I think Kidney was well checked out

Pirate

[Fisherman]

Hej Glenn!

En riktigt God Jul tillönskas dig också! Och ett gott nytt år, förstås!
Lade du märke till att Deckarspalten i Sydsvenska toppade sina julklappstips med din bok...?!

Best regards,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hello all

Looking at Baxter`s summing up of the Stride inquest it does appear that Schwartz was nowhere near the inquest where he may have seen Kidney.

But we should be very confident, even though we have no evidence, that the Detectives would have read Schwartz` statement and the description of Stride`s assailant, and looked very carefully at all Stride`s known male acquaintances.

[Jeff Leahy]

I dont want to put a dampner on this guys but if Kidney was BS man is it not probable that Schwartz might have noticed a resemblance?

Pirate