Any known physical descriptions of Kidney?

[thewastelandr]

Are there any known physical descriptions of Kidney that could fit with the descriptions of broad-shouldered man? Not that it would prove anything but could be interesting.

[Fisherman]

Hi thewastelandr! Os should I say LV?
But for the drawing we have of him at the Stride inquest, there are no physical descriptions, I´m afraid. And the drawing tells us little, since it depicts him from the side, effectively disabling us to say anything abouth shoulder width.

But we DO know that he worked at the docks, and that speaks more of a strong man than of a weak one.

The best,
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi thewastelandr! Os should I say LV?
But for the drawing we have of him at the Stride inquest, there are no physical descriptions, I´m afraid. And the drawing tells us little, since it depicts him from the side, effectively disabling us to say anything abouth shoulder width.

But we DO know that he worked at the docks, and that speaks more of a strong man than of a weak one.

The best,
Fisherman

Indeed it does.
As for the issue if the sketch of Kidney resembling Broadshoulder's description, this of course has to be a matter of personal interpretation. The sketch is actually of rather good artistic and realistic quality, as was most of those produced by Penny Illustrated Paper, so I would say it probably is fairly accurate. One problem, according to some, is the Kidney's big moustasch but then again we know that witnesses may describe very obvious details very differently and moustaches are one examples, so we shouldn't rule out Kidney based on only that feature. Apart from that, the description of Broadshoulders is quite vague anyway and doesn't give us much to go on regarding facial features etc. So I wouldn't rule Kidney out just based on the sketch - he could very well fit the description.

God jul förresten, Christer!

All the best

[Jeff Leahy]

I dont want to put a dampner on this guys but if Kidney was BS man is it not probable that Schwartz might have noticed a resemblance?

Pirate

[Jon Guy]

Hello all

Looking at Baxter`s summing up of the Stride inquest it does appear that Schwartz was nowhere near the inquest where he may have seen Kidney.

But we should be very confident, even though we have no evidence, that the Detectives would have read Schwartz` statement and the description of Stride`s assailant, and looked very carefully at all Stride`s known male acquaintances.

[Fisherman]

Hej Glenn!

En riktigt God Jul tillönskas dig också! Och ett gott nytt år, förstås!
Lade du märke till att Deckarspalten i Sydsvenska toppade sina julklappstips med din bok...?!

Best regards,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello all

Looking at Baxter`s summing up of the Stride inquest it does appear that Schwartz was nowhere near the inquest where he may have seen Kidney.

But we should be very confident, even though we have no evidence, that the Detectives would have read Schwartz` statement and the description of Stride`s assailant, and looked very carefully at all Stride`s known male acquaintances.

Yes exactly Jon, especially with Kidney wandering around accusing them of not knowing what they were doing and where they could find JtR..

I think Kidney was well checked out

Pirate

[Sam Flynn]

I dont want to put a dampner on this guys but if Kidney was BS man is it not probable that Schwartz might have noticed a resemblance?

...if Schwartz ever subsequently saw him, Jeff. He appears not to have been at the inquest, and we don't know whether he'd have seen the drawing in Penny Illustrated. Schwartz's almost total incomprehension of English is a very good reason to doubt whether he, or anyone in his circle, would have had access to the paper.

Schwartz's view of BS was in the dark, of the most fleeting nature, and the illustration appeared in the paper a week or so after the event. With that in mind, I wouldn't say it was probable that Schwartz would have noted a resemblance even if - and it's a big "if" - he saw a copy of the paper.

[Ben]

Just for quick reference, here's the image:

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?pid=464&fullsize=1

My immediate reaction to thewastelandr's original question would be; no, not really. His facial furniture is difficult to interpret as a "small brown moustache", and he seems conspicuosly older than Schwartz's man.

Just my 2p.

[thewastelandr]

Ben et al,

Thank you for posting that link! I tend to agree with you about the mustache, but we all know the problems with any witness testimony. It's nearly impossible to draw any conclusions from any one witness' interpretation of a person. That was not my intent in posting the question, just thought it would be interesting to compare.

Thanks to everyone for their responses! Very enlightening.

[Sam Flynn]

His facial furniture is difficult to interpret as a "small brown moustache"...

...ah, but is that the effect of 5 days' growth, Ben? As one who has tried, but signally failed, to "self-assemble" any facial furniture myself, I really don't know

[Ben]

I can empathise there, Gareth!

For the role of Peter Warlock, I was required to grow a fairly prolific goatee and moustache, and five weeks growth couldn't produce the desired look.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I think Kidney was well checked out

Oh really?

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

My immediate reaction to thewastelandr's original question would be; no, not really. His facial furniture is difficult to interpret as a "small brown moustache", and he seems conspicuosly older than Schwartz's man.

I'm sorry but that's nonsense, Ben.
Anyone with the slightest experience in reading witness testimonies knows that witness descriptions are totally unreliable. Heck, if people can describe people with the wrong clothes or describe a man as cleanshaven when the suspect in fact turned out to have a beard (one of many examples I have come across), then the size of a moustache is clearly a minor issue in comparison. I have seen witnesses get confused over much much more evident details and get it completely off the mark.

And that was the whole point with my previous point: even if you discount Kidney as a suspect (which I don't), then doing so on the basis of the size of the moustache and Schwartz's testimony is not acceptable.

Now - if Schwartz wasn't making it all up, mind you (another issue to consider).

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hej Glenn!

En riktigt God Jul tillönskas dig också! Och ett gott nytt år, förstås!
Lade du märke till att Deckarspalten i Sydsvenska toppade sina julklappstips med din bok...?!

Best regards,
Fisherman

hej Christer,

Jodå, jag noterade det - fick ett tips från Historiska Media. Mycket bra.
Bo Lundin håller stilen.

Trevlig jul.