Romford to Millers court

[FrankO]

If true, that was an absurd, or at least an unreasonable trip....for as you said, Hutch knew the rules...as well as the time needed to get back to London.

Hi David (& all),

I don’t find it that absurd or unreasonable. After all, the alternative may very well have been that he would have needed to walk about all night in Romford or find some place to shelter there. If so, he could just as well walk back to the East End if he had already decided not to remain in Romford any longer anyway.

However, what remains a bit puzzling, is that he could be quite sure he would arrive back at his usual lodgings after they had closed. His newspaper statement implies he checked there before walking further up Commercial Street and meeting Kelly.

As a side note, the regulation marching pace of about 4.5 miles an hour, mentioned by Bob Hinton, seems very fast to me. I think it would be closer to 3 -3.5 miles per hour, which is close to today’s average walking pace.

Surprizing also is the fact that, after his long tiring walk from Romford to the East-End....Hutch decided......to walk again.....till dawn....

I would have looked for a place to to sleep or to have some rest instead...

That's another thing that remains puzzling me too. Even though he did seem to check his usual lodgings, he didn’t try to find any other place to sleep or at least find some shelter against the elements. Not while he was loitering outside Miller’s Court and not afterwards. Or so it seems.

In fact, the arched passage would have been (relatively) perfect: it would offer shelter, he could wait for Mr A.to leave while he was sleeping or trying to and the man just had to pass him when he did leave, probably waking him up in the process. But he apparently preferred not to sleep, or at least find shelter.

All the best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

Hi Frank! Good to see you around!

You write:

"However, what remains a bit puzzling, is that he could be quite sure he would arrive back at his usual lodgings after they had closed. His newspaper statement implies he checked there before walking further up Commercial Street and meeting Kelly."

The rules of the Victoria Home stated that nobody was allowed in after 1.00 AM, unless they had a special pass.
Now, what was it Hutch said about his estimated time of arrival in the East End after his journey to Romford? Well. He stated that “About 2 am 9th I was coming by Thrawl Street, Commercial Street, and just before I got to Flower and Dean Street I saw the murdered woman Kelly.”

That would seem to tell us that he arrived back one hour after closing time at the Victoria home.

But then again, we also have the wording "On Thursday I had been to Romford, and I returned from there about two o'clock on Friday morning, having walked all the way."

Now, by all accounts it would seem that he first walked to the Victoria home, hoping to find a doss there, only to find that they were closed for business. After that, he strolled through Thrawl Street, and proceeded up Commercial Street to the intersection with Flower and Dean Street.
Of course, the distances involved are short. We are speaking of a couple of hundreds of meters or so. But the point I am trying to make is that he could not have been at the Victoria home and at the intersection of Commercial and Flower and Dean simultaneously, could he?

Could it be that he set off from Romford with a healthy chance of making it in time to the Victoria home, and was delayed by bad weather? Could it be that the one o clock closing time cut people some slack, and that arriving ten, fifteen minutes later generally worked out nicely, especially if you were a faithful customer?

As far as we know, Hutch did not wear a clock. He would have relied on other sources for his timekeeping. And as far as I can see, this taken together may well have resulted in him arriving at the Victoria home some time after one o clock, say 1.10-1.20 something, having a chat to no avail with somebody at the home, trying perhaps five minutes of persuasion before giving the project up, only to start walking the streets and ending up at the Flower and Dean – Commercial St junction, perhaps some time before two o clock.
Logically, if he had been sure that his chancing of slipping into his dosshouse were long gone, why would he go there in the first place? He would have arrived there with at least some hope to pull it off, and reasonably that points to a time not very much later than the allowed one.

After that, what do you do in a situation like Hutch´s? How about looking up somebody who was likely to be up and about at a late hour, someone who may be able to offer a shared bed in the hours leading up to the morning, somebody you knew well? Makes sense to me!

The best,
Fisherman

[Garry Wroe]

As far as we know, Hutch did not wear a clock. He would have relied on other sources for his timekeeping. And as far as I can see, this taken together may well have resulted in him arriving at the Victoria home some time after one o clock, say 1.10-1.20 something, having a chat to no avail with somebody at the home, trying perhaps five minutes of persuasion before giving the project up, only to start walking the streets and ending up at the Flower and Dean – Commercial St junction, perhaps some time before two o clock.
Logically, if he had been sure that his chancing of slipping into his dosshouse were long gone, why would he go there in the first place? He would have arrived there with at least some hope to pull it off, and reasonably that points to a time not very much later than the allowed one.

In one of his press interviews, Fish, Hutchinson was quite explicit about the time he returned from Romford. He asserted that he passed Whitechapel Church at between 1:50 and 1:55am and from there made directly for his lodgings, which were closed upon his arrival.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Fisherman]

Hi Garry!

Thanks for that! That gives us a time perspective to work with. I would still say, though, that Hutchinson probably did what most people would do in this kind of situation - probably knowing full well that he risked not being let in, he proceeded to the Victoria Home just the same. It is not until you arrive there that you get the final answer to the question of being let in or not. And it still stands that he may have set out from Romford with good hope of making it.
And of course, one implication of Hutch actually legging it all the way to the Victoria home would be that he had at least some hope of being let in. For all we know, he may have been let in at late hours many times before, in spite of the rules. Not all rules are followed, as you will appreciate. It could all boil down to a change of staff on the night in question, erasing Hutch´s hopes. For had he been absolutely sure that there was no chance, he could of course have spared himself that part of his walk.

The best,
Fisherman

[FrankO]

Hi Fish,

Good to see you too!

I see Garry has beaten me to it. In a couple of newspapers Hutchinson did indeed claim: “I am able to fix the time, as it was between ten and five minutes to two o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church.”

Perhaps Hutchinson was cut some slack at the Victoria Home on earlier occasions, but it still doesn’t make much sense for him to have risked arriving there at a time when he couldn’t be sure he would be let in. But that is what apparently happened, even though he walked the distance shortly before and it wasn’t as if there were no clocks at all around at the time.

If he was dead serious about arriving in the East End on time, then he would have wanted to be on the safe side and leave Romford at a time that would allow him some delay. Yet, it seems that he didn’t.

Unfortunately, nobody asked him more on the subject and he didn’t tell more on his own accord.

All the best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

Frank writes:

"If he was dead serious about arriving in the East End on time, then he would have wanted to be on the safe side and leave Romford at a time that would allow him some delay. Yet, it seems that he didn’t."

Exactly. And this is where you choose whether you think this points to a lie or some sinister purpose, or if you simply believe that he thought he stood a chance in spite of the late arrival - quite likely due to earlier experiences.
Besides, how do we know that he left Romford at a time that would stop him from making it? How do we know that nothing happened on the way home that delayed him?

If you choose route one, then you need an explanation as to why he did not come clean about a thing like this. Why did he not realize that it could evoke suspicions? Why did he not state that he arrived too late for the Victoria Home and instead opted for a stroll down Commercial Street in the middle of that night? What possible use could he have for placing himself at the Victoria home a minute or two before two o clock, with no witnesses to confirm it, if it was not true?

The very best,
Fisherman

[FrankO]

Based on the little evidence that we have, Fish, it’s seems very unlikely to me that Hutchinson returned to the East End with the purpose of securing himself a bed at the Victoria Home. I think he rather may have thought something like: “Well, I can walk about in Romford all night, trying to find some shelter or a place to get some sleep, but if I want to be back in the East End tomorrow morning, then I might just as well walk back tonight, despite the weather .”

Perhaps, after arriving just before 2 a.m., he tried his luck at the Victoria Home anyway due to earlier experiences, as you suggest. Perhaps he just told the press that the place where he usually slept was closed to give the impression that he simply had no choice but to walk about all night.

What remains a bit odd though, is that, other than the Victoria Home (and perhaps Kelly’s room, although he says nothing about this in his statements), he doesn’t seem to have tried to find some place that offered some shelter and the possibility for some sleep. Even though he had good reason to and there were places like that around in the neighborhood.

Like I wrote before, the arched passage to Miller’s Court would have been such a place, but there was also the passage leading to the backyard of Hanbury Street 29, and the covered landing in George Yard Buildings, perhaps the entrances to the Goulston Street buildings. All these places would beat walking about in the rain and cold all night and I'm quite sure there were others.

But perhaps he did try one or some of those places and just didn’t tell about it.

The very best,
Frank

[tellybelly]

I must admit to finding this discussion bordring upon the ludicrous. Who knows why Hutchinson went to Romford - we will never really know as we know little about him and even less about his movements. He said he had returned from there and thats about all we'll ever know. Why some can persist to cast doubt on his honesty/motives is puzzling as we very little about the man's actions, thoughts and motives. This type of speculation, in my own humble opinion, can be quite arrogant and disrespectful to a real person, caught up in the events, who is now lost in the passage of history !

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Must agree with Tellybelly [great description of my waistline there] I find it also concerning, that the vast majority of Casebook reject Hutchinsons entire story, how on earth are we supposed to progress with the Whitechapel murders of 1888, if we dismiss the entire parade of witnesses, that history has given us.
We have a name for Hutchinson , ie Topping, and until someone else owns up through ancestory to being this elusive character, I at least will stick with him, and in doing so will accept his statement, which includes 'Astracan'.
But exclude that person as a suspect, simply because he was not the last male seen talking to Mjk.
But there again bring in another unreliable[ according to many members] Mrs Maxwell, obviously another compulsive liar, amongst a long list.
Advice... take all the witnesses as being honest, then see where that leads us.
Regards Richard.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I must admit to finding this discussion bordring upon the ludicrous. Who knows why Hutchinson went to Romford - we will never really know as we know little about him and even less about his movements. He said he had returned from there and thats about all we'll ever know. Why some can persist to cast doubt on his honesty/motives is puzzling as we very little about the man's actions, thoughts and motives. This type of speculation, in my own humble opinion, can be quite arrogant and disrespectful to a real person, caught up in the events, who is now lost in the passage of history !

I think speculation is fine.....

But I would agree that it could be something as simple as.....being sat in a pub.....looking at the clock and thinking..."I need to go to get back now.....nahhh I'll have another pint and try and catch up the time by blagging a lift"......or even taking a wrong turn.....or even thinking it wasn't a big deal as he'd be able to sort something else out in terms of a place to get his head down for the night.........

[Fisherman]

Frank writes:

"...it’s seems very unlikely to me that Hutchinson returned to the East End with the purpose of securing himself a bed at the Victoria Home. I think he rather may have thought something like: “Well, I can walk about in Romford all night, trying to find some shelter or a place to get some sleep, but if I want to be back in the East End tomorrow morning, then I might just as well walk back tonight, despite the weather .”

Perhaps, after arriving just before 2 a.m., he tried his luck at the Victoria Home anyway due to earlier experiences, as you suggest."

Exactly so, Frank - I think it need not be any stranger than this.

"What remains a bit odd though, is that, other than the Victoria Home (and perhaps Kelly’s room, although he says nothing about this in his statements), he doesn’t seem to have tried to find some place that offered some shelter and the possibility for some sleep .... though he had good reason to and there were places like that around ... perhaps he did try one or some of those places and just didn’t tell about it."

Simplicity, Frank - I have a weak spot for it!

The best,
Fisherman

[dixon9]

Tellybelly

I only started this topic due to the fact i found it a bit strange a man walks 12/13 miles(or paid a few whack for a cab) on a miserable night then decides to stand outside someones flat watching it.I was only trying to get peoples views who know more than me.

Dixon9
still learning

[Garry Wroe]

I must admit to finding this discussion bordring upon the ludicrous … Why some can persist to cast doubt on his honesty/motives is puzzling as we very little about the man's actions, thoughts and motives. This type of speculation, in my own humble opinion, can be quite arrogant and disrespectful to a real person, caught up in the events, who is now lost in the passage of history !

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Tellybelly. But George Hutchinson invited speculation and even suspicion the moment he placed himself at a crime scene at a time critical to a Ripper murder. Neither was his credibility enhanced by the fact that he vacillated for three days before coming forward with seemingly crucial case-related information. Since this was a man who also gave conflicting accounts to the press and police, your apparent belief in his integrity does seem somewhat misplaced.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[harry]

The rate of progress would depend on what was being carried,and the type of terrain covered.From the brief description given by Lewis Hutchinson was at least wearing an overcoat,which in itself means a few pounds to tote,and that might appear minimal to some,but believe me would make an impression even after the first mile,and have a very detremental affect on awareness after twelve or thirteen.Yet Hutchinson's Physical well being seems to have suffered not at all.Remarkable man!
The rules for the Victoria home may have stated closure at 1AM,but it's never been shown how these rules could be enforced,so that entry could not be effected after that time,or unseen exit not been achieved.
Almost everything of Hutchinson's statement can be challenged as to its truthfullness,and the ,"Iwas at Romford",is near the head of the list.

[Rubyretro]

Exactly, Garry !