Romford to Millers court

[DVV]

I smell a rat somewhere there..

I smell a rat too...
Coming back to late to sleep in the VH...
Walking again, and oh, MJK with Astrakhan Man....
Then why not loitering in front of Miller's Court for almost an hour.....

The walk from Romford is an essential piece of GH' story/tale.

Withdraw it and he has no more reason to roam the streets at such a time...not to mention the weather.

Amitiés,
David

[claire]

That's exactly right...even if he'd had his doss money, he was a sufficiently seasoned 'dosser' to know the place would be shut by the time he reached the capital. There were a whole lot of holes in his account, and strange embellishments, but I suspect he was eventually passed over by police as being a harmless tale-spinner...wrongly, in my opinion.

[Rubyretro]

Well I think that the police' were wrong to dismiss him as 'harmless' too !!

But personally I believe that he really DID come back from Romford that day and he really DID speak to MJK in the street.

That is because I have met some pathological liars in my time, and in my experience they always mix in some verifiable 'truths' into their fiction. They
lie about things which are incredibly hard to verify, but that you will more easily accept as being true if you know the rest of their story to be true. Also, they need to keep a picture of their tale in their head and be able to reply to questioning in a believable way...if the picture that they have in their head is true, they can't 'forget what they said' and trip themselves up,
and convincing detail can 'slip out' spontaneously.

I think that Hutch, by volunteering himself as a witness, was taking a tremendous risk of being interogated as as a suspect. He knew that he might be questioned as to where exactly he'd asked for work in Romford. He knew that, had he really been in London all along, then someone could have come
forward to say that they'd seen him in the pub, at the lodgings, or in a shop. Especially since he gave his tale to the papers.
I think that he was 'safe' in telling the Police that he'd been to Romford, and
he knew that he could call upon people who'd seen him there to prove it.

Likewise, if he habitually lodged in the area, he ran the risk of having been spotted talking to MJK in the street (now that WOULD have been bad, if he was later hanging about in Miller's Court), so I believe that he deflected
any potential witnesses in advance by freely admitting it. We don't know what his conversation with her was though -as the only witness to that (Mary) was dead.

No one could verify Astrakhan Man as having existed -but they couldn't 'Prove' that he didn't either, so he was pretty safe there.
I still believe that A Man was based on a real person (but no where near the East End that night), or a composite more likely, so that Police could not catch him out in contradicting his description and he was more at ease with a picture in his mind of what he was recounting.

There is a definite 'rat' though, as to what was so important for him to get back to London late at night in the pitch black and rain, if he didn't even have the money to sit & drink in the pubs with his mates, and it was too late to lodge. Why, after such a walk, was he hanging about Miller's Court, unless he wanted to get into that room ?

I think that he came back to kill a prostitute -whilst people thought he was out of town in Romford- and the fact that MJK had a warm room (where he knew that she was alone, since he'd followed her back) was the icing on the cake.

[Robert]

If I remember right from Bob's book, GH walked back that rainy night because he was enamoured of Kelly and wanted to see her. Which if true, shows that GH was more romantic than me.

[dixon9]

Do we know the last night Hutch saw MJK before that fateful night?
As MJK and Barnett had only split up about 10 days earlier although he had visited her on a few occasions.Just wondered if Hutch would have known of the split?

Dixon9
still learning

[dixon9]

*sorry that should read the last time hutch saw Kelly

[DVV]

From dusk to dawn

That's exactly right...even if he'd had his doss money, he was a sufficiently seasoned 'dosser' to know the place would be shut by the time he reached the capital.

You're right Claire, and that's the main point.

He may have, or not, walked back from Romford that night.
If true, that was an absurd, or at least an unreasonable trip....for as you said, Hutch knew the rules...as well as the time needed to get back to London.

Surprizing also is the fact that, after his long tiring walk from Romford to the East-End....Hutch decided......to walk again.....till dawn....

I would have looked for a place to to sleep or to have some rest instead...but just like Robert, I'm not Hutch. So who knows...

What I'm certain of is that the Romford story "explains" Hutch's presence in Dorset Street that night.

Amitiés,
David

[Rubyretro]

What is Bob basing that on ?

It might very well be true -or not.

[Rubyretro]

I don't think that we do know -or even that he knew her at all (we only have his word for it).

I guess that he DID know her -for the reasons that I've already said about liars weaving facts with fiction.

He might very well have known that she had split up with Barnett; He might have known it before, or he might have learned it that night. It's safe to assume that he didn't expect Barnett to turn up that night, though, and knew that Barnett wasn't already in the room.

[claire]

Well, to be fair, we can only say that it's safe to assume that he didn't expect Barnett to turn up that night if he *was* involved in something nefarious, and that is the point under consideration. We just don't really know if he knew her at all (I'm still scratching my head about the five year thing), or got back, stumbled upon a likely, and invented his story post-inquest when he thought he might be recognised.

I'm the last to know...I still haven't fully graduated from the Flemchinson school

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Being a staunch supporter of 'Topping' being Hutchinson, one thing bothers me, that being the Five years of knowing Kelly.
That simply has to be not false, [athough of course he may have got his timing wrong,] for it would have dated back to 1883, and hutchinson was only seventeen years old then.
As I have said many times previously, I maintain that if 'Topping' was Hutchinson, he was telling the truth entirely. however if Huchinson has not been identified to date, then the unknown Hutch could well have been a killer, a mugger, a rapist, a stalker, a pimp, and more.
I just feel that the character of Topping was not the type.
However the five year thing appears a gross exsaggeration, so why not the description of Astracan also?
Hmmm,
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Should have read 'That simply has to be false'
Richard.

[Rubyretro]

Richard -I absolutely believe that Toppy and Hutch are one and the same too
(and I'm prepared to defend that opinion).

As far as I know, Mary was very young (25) and has only been living in London for 4 years. Hutch probably saw that she was about his own age (I think that men with an outdoor life & facial hair & hard drinking prostitutes would have looked older than their age, and it was probably difficult to judge people's age exactly), and thought that this story was believable.

I'm afraid that he made it up, along with Astrakhan Man.

[Rubyretro]

p.s. Richard,

I'm going to play the 'Devil's Advocate' here, and say that I bet the figure '5 years' was supplied by a policeman and Hutch never said that anyway...

I don't know about you, but if I were questioned about how long I'd known
an acquaintance -or even a good friend- it would take me ages to work out.
Also '5' is such a neat number.


I can imagine the questioning going something like :
"you say that you've known the victim for a while...how long exactly?"
"um...um...let me see now..."
" what ? one year ? two years ? five years ?"
" about that, yes.."
" So...you'd known the victim for 5 years...go on..."

So, I don't know that it means anything -unless someone has a transcript of the 'interrogation" of Hutch ?? (if he had rehearsed the answers to questions as simple as this -now that would be VERY worrying).

[Rubyretro]

(too late to 'edit')

Just re read Hutch's statement -infact he said that he knew MJK 3 years -not 5 !!