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Hutchinson and antisemitism ?? A possibility?

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  • The reason Abberline believed what Hutchinson said in his statement to the police was because he wanted to believe it. He genuinely thought that Hutchinson was providing the first concrete evidence as to the identify of JTR, that he had truly seen JTR, had provided a detailed description and had stated he could identify the man. It does look as if Abberline soon came to realise that his immediate hopes of getting JTR via Hutchinson were false hopes. Its hard to believe that Abberline (and other officers) didn't then consider the possibility that Hutchinson may have been more involved in MJK's killing than he had said. However, the fact is that they did not arrest Hutchinson for the murder(s) and didn't even consider him a suspect. Of course, Hutchinson's description of A man may have thrown Abberline and the others off the scent for a while but these were experienced detectives, etc, and wouldn't have taken that long to realise the trail laid by Hutchinson was a cold one. Other witnesses had described potential JTRs as 'foreign' looking so its not much of a step to go from foreign to Jewish especially in the context of the East End of 1888.

    Hutchinson didn't come forward until after the inquest but perhaps he was just sweating it out. It was not until the inquest heard the evidence of Sarah Lewis that Hutchinson would have known he could possibly be identified as having been standing by the entrance to Millers Court shortly before the murder appears to have taken place. Until the inquest, he may have been hoping that no-one would come forward to say he was there or, indeed, not known anyone would give such evidence at the inquest. But, once the inquest was told that information and, afraid that he himself might be considered the killer, he decided the best course of action was to come forward at that point. He may simply given the police a wholly ficticious description of the A man he said was with MJK simply to throw suspicion away from himself as much as to gain attention. That in itself suggests he was protecting himself, but it does not prove that he murdered Kelly.

    What various cities in the world can evince in the nature of graffiti is somewhat beyond the point isn't it ? You must keep in mind the nature of the later Victorian East End: overcrowded, dirty, poverty-stricken, mutli-ethnic, large population of poor, often Jewish, immigrants, etc, etc. It beggars belief that the juwes graffiti was the only anti-semitic graffiti in the Whitechapel/Spitalfields area in 1888 and the only reason it was wiped out was because the piece of Eddowes' apron could have inflamed a tense situation that already existed in the East End with or without the JTR murders. This is the only reason the graffiti took on any particular significance at all. To think that the graffiti was written by, or even specifically selected by, JTR is adding two and two together to get five. Its adding an unnecessary stage to events.

    Re the shirt found partially burnt in MJK's fire grate, I though it was a boy's shirt belonging to Mrs Harvey's young son. At an alleged 5ft - 6/7ins A man would have been a bit too big to wear it to protect his clothes from MJK's blood. Maybe they were burnt to provide light, heat, etc, but maybe just burned out of pique or anger. Who knows ?

    What is true is that we should avoid thinking we know when in reality we don't. Speculation and supposition, no matter how convincing, is not hard evidence. It can point us in one direction or another, leave room for healthy and friendly debate but, in the final analysis proves nothing.
    Last edited by Abberline2; 04-08-2010, 02:43 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by harry View Post
      Had Hutchinson not come forward,the obvious suspect would have been the man Cox says entered Kelly's room,in her,(kelly) company.When Cox first communicated this information to police is not known,but it became known at the inquest on the monday.Not much time could have been spent looking for Blotchy, and the introduction of Hutchinson's sighting would most certainly have swung police activities in that direction.So Blotchy,by Hutchinson's action,is given an alibi,as is Hutchinson.A Jew now becomes the focal point.
      The question is,could this have been a ploy by Hutchinson to take suspicion deliberately in a new direction.There seems no reason whatsoever to come forward and help Blotchy,and put himself in the picture,unless he himself was Blotchy.Nothing much is known of Kelly's movements that night,but what is certain,is that if she were alive at 2AM,what happened before that time,would,to the authorities,seem of little importance,and a waste of time finding out.
      Had Hutchinson not come forward, then the main suspect for Kelly's murder would have been the man seen lurking by Lewis....Hutchinson.
      http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
        Had Hutchinson not come forward, then the main suspect for Kelly's murder would have been the man seen lurking by Lewis....Hutchinson.
        Exactly ! And that is why Hutchinson did come forward, he clearly had the sense to realise that Lewis' evidence at the inquest could make the police think he was the murderer. This explains why he did not come forward until after the inquest, it doesn't prove Hutchinson was the murderer.
        Last edited by Abberline2; 04-08-2010, 03:01 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abberline2 View Post
          The reason Abberline believed what Hutchinson said in his statement to the police was because he wanted to believe it. He genuinely thought that Hutchinson was providing the first concrete evidence at the the identify of JTR, that he had truly seen JTR, had provided a detailed description and had stated he could identify the man. It does look as if Abberline soon came to realise that his immediate hopes of getting JTR via Hutchinson were false hopes. Its hard to believe that Abberline (an other officers) didn't then consider the possibility that Hutchinson may have been more involved in MJK's killing than he had said. However, the fact is that they did not arrest Hutchinson for the murder(s) and didn't even consider him a suspect. Of course, Hutchinson's description of A man may have thrown Abberline and the others off the scent for a while but these were experienced detectives, etc, and wouldn't have taken that long to realise the trail was a cold one. Other witnesses had described potential JTSs as foreign looking so its not much of a step to go from foreign to Jewish especially in the context of the East End of 1888.

          Maybe Hutchinson was just sweating it out. It was not until the inquest heard the evidence of Sarah Lewis that Hutchinson would have known he could possibly be identified as having been standing by the entrance to Millers Court shortly before the murder appears to have taken place. Until the inquest, he may have been hoping that no-one would come forward to say he was there or, indeed, not known anyone would give such evidence at the inquest. But, once the inquest was told that information and, afraid that he himelf might be considered the killer, he decided the best course of action was to come forward at that point. He may simply given the police a wholly ficticious description of the man he said was with MJK simply to throw suspicion away from himself as much as to gain attention. That in itself suggests he was protecting himself, it does not prove that he killed Kelly.

          What various cities in the world can evince in the nature of graffiti is somewhat beyond the point isn't it ? You must keep the nature of the later Victorian East End: overcrowded, dirty, poverty-stricken, mutli-ethnic, large population of poor, often Jewish, immigrants, etc, etc. It beggars belief that the juwes graffiti was the only anti-semitic graffiti in the Whitechapel/Spitalfields area in 1888 and the only reason it was wiped out was because the piece of Eddowes apron could have inflamed an already tense situation that already existed with or without the JTR murders. This is the only reason the graffiti took on any partricular significance at all. To think that the graffiti was written by, or even specifically selected by, JTR is adding two and two together to get five. Its adding an unnecessary stage to events.

          Re the shirt found partially burnt in MJK's fire grate, I though it was a boy's shirt belonging to Mrs Harvey's young son. At an alleged 5ft - 6/7ins A man would have been a bit too big to wear it to protect his seemingly fine clothes from MJK's blood. Maybe they were burnt to provide light, heat, etc, but maybe just burned out of pique or anger. Who knows ?

          What is true is that we should avoid thinkig we know when in reality we don't. Speculation and supposition, no matter how convincing, is not hard evidence. It can point us in one direction or another, leave room for healthy and friendly debate but, in the final analysis proves nothing.
          Abberline 2 -I absolutely & totally agree with you that speculation proves nothing. However, one of the big attractions to this case is that whilst it was never solved, the wealth of detail and clues is enormous.
          The other thing is that it was a relatively short time ago still.
          I know that some people think that it's so far away that it's impossible to find anything now, but consider that fact that 25 years ago I heard Jeanne Calmant talking on the radio about selling Van Gogh canvases (she was already teenager) from her father's shop in Arles, as a tot I lived in a house with my Great Grandad who had carried Victoria's coffin, and the other came from Ireland in the famine: it's all a relatively short time ago, and there is
          still a wealth of information which is only third hand.
          Then we have a 'revolution', with archives & information availble on the internet for research from your own home.
          Then things like those knives still exist

          So whilst theories rest theories, there is a possibility that they could be proved, and it is an awful lot of fun researching in the mean time -

          speculating, as you like, one could put a shirt on back to front without buttoning it up.
          My 14 year old son is bigger and broader than my husband. I am 5' 6" and it's not huge -each generation seems to get taller (Hutchinson was only 22).
          I have a hard job imagining JtR creating that amount of carnage without risking getting some 'gunk' on himself, and he had to at least walk home, and at worst would only have what he stood up in. If there were clothes in the room, I think that he would of used them for protection, even if he also wanted light & heat.

          Personally, I don't believe in the letters being genuine -but I think that the graffito was chosen, if not written, by JtR.
          http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abberline2 View Post
            Hutchinson didn't come forward until after the inquest but perhaps he was just sweating it out. It was not until the inquest heard the evidence of Sarah Lewis that Hutchinson would have known he could possibly be identified as having been standing by the entrance to Millers Court shortly before the murder appears to have taken place. Until the inquest, he may have been hoping that no-one would come forward to say he was there or, indeed, not known anyone would give such evidence at the inquest.
            All well and good, except that Hutchinson claimed to have informed a policeman of his meeting with Kelly and her encounter with the Jewish-looking suspect. Since this was said to have occurred on the Sunday, the day before the Sarah Lewis story received its first public airing, Hutchinson was either lying or he wasn't 'sweating it out'.

            Garry Wroe.

            Comment


            • I know this is a bit off topic, but I'd like to point out one other thing about the Graffiti that seems to get overlooked.... It was small... in other words, each letter was written to fit into the height of a brick ( which is about 2 inches). Most graffiti written on walls is much bigger than that; so as to state from a distance " Here I am! Look at me". This particular writing was likely not to be legible until you got close... like bending down to pick up a bloody apron.

              I've been told before by folks how illogical it is for a killer, fresh from 2 kills, maybe, to take a chance such as the apron/graffiti message, but I've read about stranger things being done by known serial killers. Anyone who kills a woman and nearly gets caught in the process; then goes a little ways off and kills another in a public square where police patrols are less than 15 minutes apart is not acting logically anyway.

              He was very lucky.
              Best Wishes,
              Hunter
              ____________________________________________

              When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
                (sorry Garry, to write like that -it's because I'm making the effort to not be controversial).
                Not at all, Ruby. The point I was trying to make, however, concerns the dichotomy between the apparent official rejection of Hutchinson's claims and Abberline's belief that Jack the Ripper was a Jewish-looking suspect lookalike. It's something of a paradox to my way of thinking.

                On an altogether different note, I would caution against the automatic dismissal of the opinions of men such as Abberline. They were there, in the thick of it, and had information to which we are simply not privy.

                Garry Wroe.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                  I know this is a bit off topic, but I'd like to point out one other thing about the Graffiti that seems to get overlooked.... It was small... in other words, each letter was written to fit into the height of a brick ( which is about 2 inches). Most graffiti written on walls is much bigger than that; so as to state from a distance " Here I am! Look at me". This particular writing was likely not to be legible until you got close... like bending down to pick up a bloody apron.
                  Hunter,

                  We spoke of this a lot in the past, and you and I are on the same page with that. Graffiti is generally flamboyant and not neatly written in a round schoolboy's hand. Surely it meant something where it was located. As for when it was written, I believe it was written before going out that night, and it may have not been written by the Ripper, just read and liked by him.

                  Mike
                  huh?

                  Comment


                  • Graffiti...........

                    What I believe was pointed out by Mr. Wroe, in his superb essay, was that the same sort of grammatical ignorance was displayed in the Ghoulston street graffiti and the Lusk letter. Too bad someone didn't photograph the graffiti, if the hand and poor grammar seemed to match, this would lend greater credence to each as being from JTR................


                    Greg

                    Comment


                    • In fact, the "hand" of the GSG has been described (round school boy machin chose), and hardly matches that of the FH letter. Which proves nothing either way, of course.

                      Amitiés Greg,
                      David
                      Last edited by DVV; 04-08-2010, 05:53 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
                        If there were clothes in the room, I think that he would of used them for protection, even if he also wanted light & heat.

                        Personally, I don't believe in the letters being genuine -but I think that the graffito was chosen, if not written, by JtR.

                        If that was the case why only use and burn Mrs Harvey's bundle and not MJK's as well ?

                        Comment


                        • I admire your enthusiasm Ruby ! It would be interesting to know how common horseshoe tie pins were at that time. Maybe Hutchinson's description was ficticious and based on someone he knew or had seen elsewhere who was connected in some way with horses. Then again, the pin could have been worn merely as a good luck symbol and not have anything to do with the horse owning/breeding/racing fraternity at all.

                          Given the savage nature of the mutilation of MJK and the fact that being in MJK's room the killer could take his time as he went about the killing, I would have thought that blood would have easily soaked through any pieces of clothing he may have used to protect his own clothes and, indeed, have soaked through onto his own clothing. The idea that he used the clothes to protect his own just doesn't seem very likely.

                          As for Hutchinson, his actions are clearly consistent with those of an innocent man who realised he could be thought to be the murderer of MJK.

                          For me, in the midst of all the 'ifs' and 'maybes' he doesn't come over as a credible candidate for the mantle of JTR.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Garry Wroe View Post
                            All well and good, except that Hutchinson claimed to have informed a policeman of his meeting with Kelly and her encounter with the Jewish-looking suspect. Since this was said to have occurred on the Sunday, the day before the Sarah Lewis story received its first public airing, Hutchinson was either lying or he wasn't 'sweating it out'.

                            Garry Wroe.
                            But equally, as you say, Hutchinson could have been lying simply to give the impression that he had not waited until after the inquest - he must have known it was a question that he would obviously be asked by the police once he had come forward. He may simply have been adding yet another lie to make it appear that he had indeed come forward before the inquest when in all probability he had done no such thing.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by harry View Post
                              Personnely I would not put too much faith in Aberline's expressed belief in Hutchinson.Initially he may have done so,but there seems to be a complete lack of stated belief after the report of that evening.
                              As to Blotchy being a better bet than Hutchinson on account of being placed in Kelly's room,it seems at odds with a belief in Hutchinson's sighting of Kelly at 2AM on Commercial ST,in the company of another man,who also went to her room..You cannot have it both ways Fleetwood.
                              A man seen going into her room is not a better bet than the testimony of a man who may or might not have been lying...and were he telling the truth Hutchinson didn't see him going into her room?

                              It's not what you perceive that counts.....it's what happened.
                              Last edited by Fleetwood Mac; 04-08-2010, 10:44 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Hi,

                                Originally posted by Abberline2 View Post
                                As for Hutchinson, his actions are clearly consistent with those of an innocent man who realised he could be thought to be the murderer of MJK.
                                I don't really believe that Hutch is our man but his detailed testimony still gives me headaches. If he only wanted to clear his name, a less colorful story would have been enough.

                                He said that he had read news of the murders to Mary Kelly so he knew about the huge press echo and journalists who bustled about the East End in search of new stories. Perhaps he wanted to get his 15 minutes of fame just like Packer.

                                Regards,

                                Boris
                                ~ All perils, specially malignant, are recurrent - Thomas De Quincey ~

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