Proof of identity

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

I meant the druggist store in Aldgate. Since he'd gone there after drinking heavily, it's a safe enough bet that he'd been drinking in the area, and of course most locals tend to visit the same pubs fairly "frequently". I confused Harris with the druggist - sorry! Thanks for the info, though.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Ben,

I meant the druggist store in Aldgate. Since he'd gone there after drinking heavily, it's a safe enough bet that he'd been drinking in the area, and it most locals tend to visit the same pubs fairly "frequently". I confused Harris with the druggist - sorry!

Indeed, it was Harris - rather than the druggist - who "knew" the defendant. This, on the surface, suggests that Hutchison frequented Harris's manor more than the druggist's. Perhaps, given his profession, Hutchison supplied Harris with stationery.

Now, he wouldn't have gone far if Harris were his only outlet, and clearly Hutchison would have had other customers. This, alone, might be suggestive of his "frequenting" the Aldgate/City area, but - and this is crucial - in a business capacity only. To me, this would be a more likely reason behind Hutchison being drunk in the Aldgate area - a few swift ones whilst on business. The alternative scenario, in which he strolled there from a bunk at (say) the Victoria Home, seems somewhat tortuous in comparison.

Hutchison did, after all, state that he was living in Bow at the time - and the Times describes him as "well-connected" and respectably dressed. I see no reason for doubting any of this, and - unconfirmed speculation that he fell on hard times between 1887 and 1891 apart - I'm pretty sure in myself that the watch-stealer is unlikely to have been "our George".

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

I see no reason for doubting any of this, and - unconfirmed speculation that he fell on hard times between 1887 and 1891 apart - I'm pretty sure in myself that the watch-stealer is unlikely to have been "our George".

I don't wish to speak for Debs, but from what I gather from her research, there are ample reasons to doubt the "well-connectedness" of the family. That doesn't mean, necssarily, that he's the "witness" of JTR notoriety, but he's the best of a bad bunch of "George Hutchinsons", and he's on another plain to tenuous Toppy. The bare fact that he was living in the East End at the right time, and that a registrar believed the signatures matched puts him ahead of the others - well, the ones named "George Hutchinson" anyway.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

Not having seen those signatures, I can't possibly comment. But it would be really useful if we could have them posted here for comparison, needless to say. Possibly conclusive, even!

[Debra A]

Hi Ben,If only the newspaper article had told us where his shop was! But we can try...

Charles Harris, the shopkeeper/pawnbroker in question, seems to have been living in Battersea Park Road in 1881 - his brother, Edwin (described as "Pawnbroker's assistant"), living on the premises with him. I've found no definitive trace of either Charles or Edwin subsequently, although an Edwin Harris of the right age turns up as a silversmith in Hatton Garden in 1891. If it's the same Edwin, then we may have an indication that the family had business premises in the City (i.e. Hatton Garden) by 1891.

There are actually three men named charles Harris in the 1891 census connected to pawnbroking Sam. Two of them are pawnbrokers managers as per the news report, Charles R Harris at 6 Romily Road Islington and Charles H Harris 158 Spa Road Bermondsey. The Charles A Harris you picked out is still at 6 Cambridge Road in 91 and is described as a pawnbroker jeweller, if we are going to be anal about this I'd go with the managers above the one you picked
anyway, that still leaves us with no idea where the shop was in my view.

unconfirmed speculation that he fell on hard times between 1887 and 1891 apart - I'm pretty sure in myself that the watch-stealer is unlikely to have been "our George".

I said that a man could turn to drink and prostitutes and return to the face of respectability in the 10 years between a census, meaning we just don't know, that applies to any of the George's we pick out that do or don't seem to fit our views of what George Hutchinson was to us.

The only definite way to rule him, or any others we pick out would be to look at the individuals signature and compare it with the statement. I got off my arse and attempted to do this for one of them at least. If I had the time and inclination anymore I'd do a few more even!!

One last thing, Rose Mylett told people she lived at Bow... but she didn't.

[Debra A]

Hi Ben,

Not having seen those signatures, I can't possibly comment. But it would be really useful if we could have them posted here for comparison, needless to say. Possibly conclusive, even!

Which ones Sam?

[Sam Flynn]

The Charles A Harris you picked out

Actually, Debs, he was the only one I could find. Glad you've found two others!

Off-hand, don't you find it intensely annoying that Ancestry.com only bothered indexing the professions/occupations for the 1881 Census entries and not the others? I certainly do

[Sam Flynn]

Which ones Sam?

The signatures Ben refers to that apparently match, Debs. I presume Ben means those of George Hutchi(n)son (watch-stealer) and George Hutchinson (Kelly-witness) on the notorious "Astrakhan" police statement.

[Debra A]

Off-hand, don't you find it intensely annoying that Ancestry.com only bothered indexing the professions/occupations for the 1881 Census entries and not the others? I certainly do

That's why I use a site that does Sam, saves loads of time!

The signatures Ben refers to that apparently match, Debs. I presume Ben means those of George Hutchi(n)son (watch-stealer) and George Hutchinson ("Uber-witness") on the famous police statement.

Sam, I'm disappointed
Read my post on the registrar story again...
Neither Ben nor I are saying they apparently matched at all, we are telling you that one of the first registars I spoke to about the signatures gave her own opinion that they did... and one gave her opinion that they didn't....50/50 then innit?! I'll give you the details if you want to write for special permission to go look see for yourself Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I'm disappointed
Read my post on the registrar story again...
Neither Ben nor I are saying they apparently matched at all, we are telling you that one of the first registars I spoke to about the signatures gave her own opinion that they did... and one gave her opinion that they didn't....50/50 then innit?! I'll give you the details if you want to write for special permission to go look see for yourself Sam.

I confess to being a little confused by your being disappointed by my post. Ben said that someone claimed the signatures might match, so I in turn assumed he'd seen them too - if so, I thought there might perhaps be scanned copies that might be shared with us here.

I didn't think that suggestion was controversial in any way

[Debra A]

I've explained why we don't have the signatures Sam, and it was me that told Ben what the registrar had said, Ben must have trusted my word on that, seems you don't.

[Tom_Wescott]

I've explained why we don't have the signatures Sam, and it was me that told Ben what the registrar had said, Ben must have trusted my word on that, seems you don't.

You can't win this one, Sam. Just agree and move on.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

You can't win this one, Sam. Just agree and move on.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Oh, It's about winning is it?...that's where I'm going wrong.

[Sam Flynn]

I've explained why we don't have the signatures Sam, and it was me that told Ben what the registrar had said, Ben must have trusted my word on that, seems you don't.

I don't doubt your word at all - I only asked if it were possible to upload the images. I wouldn't baulk at doing so if I had access to them myself - and I certainly wouldn't take offence at someone suggesting that I did.

[Tom_Wescott]

No, it's not about winning. But when I saw you deciding for Sam what he does and doesn't think and jumping to the worst conclusions possible - just as you did repeatedly with me - I thought I'd throw up a discreet warning light for him. It's hard enough to argue against someone's ego, as we all often find ourselves doing on here...but arguing against someone's insecurities can be downright impossible. Peace and love, Debra Arif.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott