Proof of identity

[Ben]

there are two accounts separated by 80 years suggesting that Hutchinson recieved a payment of five times his weekly salary.

Not quite, Observer.

The best we can say is that there are two accounts mentioning payment in connection with Hutchinson's account, and that isn't all that weird or coincidental at all. One says he lied, and that he was paid to go on an Astrakhan hunt, the other says he told the truth and that he was paid to keep quiet about spotting a well know historical figure with Mary Kelly. Not much congruity there, m'afraid, and Reg doesn't mention anything about "five times the salary".

...And the handwriting doesn't match.

All the best,
Ben

[Simon Wood]

Could This Be Our George?

Hi All,

The Times—September 2nd 1887

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Hi All,

The Times—September 2nd 1887

Been there, Simon! If there hadn't been a server crash, I'd point you to the thread! As it is, I can at least inform you that the watch-stealer was George S Hutchinson/Hutchison, a stationer, whom I found at Cottage Grove, Mile End, in the 1891 Census. There he is listed as a widower, and living with his parents.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

Many thanks.

Another candidate for the trash can.

Regards,

Simon

[David Knott]

Bob,

Re your post #84, the point was that Ben was doubting that Toppy would have ever been anything other than a plumber (or apprentice), whereas Toppy's own father spent some time labouring before entering the family trade. Toppy's uncle also started out in a different trade before becoming a plumber. Also, Toppy's dad was married in the Shoreditch district so if Toppy was our witness, he may have been following in his father's footsteps by labouring in the East End for a while. Maybe!

Ben,

Re your post #69, I don't see how GH the butcher, for example, would be a better bet than Toppy. He appears to have been married with a child in 1888, the child being born in the same area where he was residing in 1891.

Reg certainly had siblings, much older than he was. Toppy and Mrs Toppy were pushing 50 when Reg was born. Shouldn't be too difficult to trace some of Toppy's other descendents.

[Ben]

Hi David,

Re your post #84, the point was that Ben was doubting that Toppy would have ever been anything other than a plumber (or apprentice), whereas Toppy's own father spent some time labouring before entering the family trade.

That was when he was 15 though, before his plumbing apprenticeship started. That's a lot different to starting a plumbing apprenticeship courtesy of his father (which was a huge bonus for someone in Toppy's position), then suddenly deciding "Nah, can't be arsed with that" some time in his late teens, before boning off to the East End for three years and becoming a groom-come-labourer.

He appears to have been married with a child in 1888

That doesn't help his candidacy, I agree, but he can still be placed as living in the East End, which is more than can be said for the Toppster, and there's nothing implausible about a period of seperation from wife and kids. At least, not as implausible as Toppy's jiggery-pokery viz a viz his occupation(s).

As for George Thomas Hutchi(n)son, the watch thief from Cottage Grove, he is a better bet by far, at least in comparison to the others. He was known to frequent Aldgate and lived in the right area; very close, in fact, to where Ada Wilson was attacked by a wideawake-wearing knife-wielder. In his case, at least one registrar believed the signature to have been a match with the witness statement. Debra Arif did the lion's share of research into this character, and she may wish to add her two cents worth. He died in 1925.

He's still not my Nunero Uno candidate, but he's one of the better bets, and on another plain to tenuous Toppy.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

As for George Thomas Hutchi(n)son, the watch thief from Cottage Grove, he is a better bet by far, at least in comparison to the others. He was known to frequent Aldgate

Where is it written that George S Hutchi(n)son frequented Aldgate, Ben?

[David Knott]

The planet appears to be teeming with Toppy's descendents. One of Toppy's daughters died as recently as 1999, and I have an address for one of her children (may not be up to date though). I will follow that up and see if it leads us anywhere.

David

[Suzi]

...which might, oddly enough, explain why the story appeared only in an American newspaper, rather than in any organs of the local press.

When did you last pay £5 for a plumber Sam???? Polish though???????????? hehe

[Debra A]

Hi Sam, Ben

Been there, Simon! If there hadn't been a server crash, I'd point you to the thread! As it is, I can at least inform you that the watch-stealer was George S Hutchinson/Hutchison, a stationer, whom I found at Cottage Grove, Mile End, in the 1891 Census. There he is listed as a widower, and living with his parents.

Most of the research I did on George Thomas was never posted to the boards and poor people like Ben and a few others were privy to a lot of my usual research ramblings...you know how these things can go ...I can't seem to remember the Aldgate connection myself at the moment, but maybe Ben can refresh my memory.
Anyway, the upshot is, George Thomas could have been anywhere and doing anything between 15th October 1884, when his wife died, and 1891 when he is found living with his father George Pierson Hutchinson at Cottage Grove
We know he looks as if he was going off the rails between that time anyway, being drunk and stealing watches in 1887.
His father George Pierson Hutchinson probably wasn't the affluent person he appears to be either. He was several times a bankrupt and had been in debtors prison in Oxfordshire at least twice when George was young. There were also family connections to a few places in Essex (none to Romford found though) before George was born the family were living at Mossford Green in Essex, and a cousin of George senior was also born in Essex. George Thomas Hutchinson did have one son b c 1881 and after the death of his mother in 1884 he was farmed out to various relatives, eventually ending up in Essex himself.
Personally, I don't think either GWTH or Cottage Grove George Thomas can be ruled out based on occupations or locations at any one given time alone, the census is a snapshot of a life every ten years that's all, we can't possibly know what they were up to in the years in between. A man could turn to drink, prostitutes and go crazy for a few years and then return to respectability in the space of ten years without us even knowing I'm sure!
I think signature comparisons could possibly rule them out though, and like Ben said, one registrar was almost certain that the signature of George Thomas did match that of the signatures on the witness statement (she didn't say which particular one) while another registrar didn't think they did.They were going to copy the original page in the register for me with the original signature but it was too fragile to do this in the end. I was told I would need written permission to view the entry myself and so that is the reason why I didn't continue any further after that, but I've offered my research up before to anyone else who's interested in looking into it, and the offer still stands.

[Debra A]

Ah, he was known to have been in Aldgate and least one time in 1887 anyway as that's where he met the guy he stole the watch from isn't it?

[Bob Hinton]

Richard take note.....

The planet appears to be teeming with Toppy's descendents. One of Toppy's daughters died as recently as 1999, and I have an address for one of her children (may not be up to date though). I will follow that up and see if it leads us anywhere.

David

this is the sort of thing you need to do to carry your ideas forward. David has done some research and found people you really need to be interviewed.

Great work David and Debra! (Sounds like a double act)

[Sam Flynn]

Ah, he was known to have been in Aldgate and least one time in 1887 anyway as that's where he met the guy he stole the watch from isn't it?

The question is, whether we can extrapolate from that one event to an assertion that he "frequented" the area, Debs I know Westgate Street in Cardiff quite well, on account of it's being near the Millennium Stadium, but I don't "frequent" it. I only go there when there's a rugby match on.

[Ben]

Thanks for that timely reminder of the relevent details relating to George Thomas Hutchinson, Debs! Great work on your part, and again, the fact that one of the registrars discerned a match between his signature and that appended to the statement remains extremely tantalizing.

As for his Aldgate connections, you're quite right; he clearly "went" there in order to be seen there in 1887 (which is more then can be said for any other "George Hutchinson" according to extant evidence), and the fact that the shopkeeper knew him suggests very strongly that this wasn't his first visit to the area.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

the fact that the shopkeeper knew him suggests very strongly that this wasn't his first visit to the area.

If only the newspaper article had told us where his shop was! But we can try...

Charles Harris, the shopkeeper/pawnbroker in question, seems to have been living in Battersea Park Road in 1881 - his brother, Edwin (described as "Pawnbroker's assistant"), living on the premises with him. I've found no definitive trace of either Charles or Edwin subsequently, although an Edwin Harris of the right age turns up as a silversmith in Hatton Garden in 1891. If it's the same Edwin, then we may have an indication that the family had business premises in the City (i.e. Hatton Garden) by 1891.