Has anybody seen this before?

[Phil Carter]

Dave,

I, like many, many others, have a very hard time accepting anything that came out of "The Ripper and the Royals" mainly, I am afraid to say, because of the link to JosephGorman/Sickert. But also because of the retraction occurrances by BOTH Fairclough and Gorman/Sickert. Unfortunately, but inevitably, it casts an immediate doubt on the whole publication.

However, and it is worth mentioning here, that if Knight's "Final Solution" had never been printed, some of what we knew about the Ripper, the Case, would have remained unknown for a longer time.

One can only hope that there may indeed be an O'Brien connection to be found elsewhere. The most intruiging part is the "lived with" mention of Hutchinson. Because if THAT is true, Hutchinson becomes not a believable witness, but, I suggest, a prime suspect, for Kelly's murder at least.

We shall see. I hold no great hope for this, but one never knows does one?
It is always best to discount rather than assume. So each way we win.

best wishes

Phil

[Dave James]

A whole new can of worms

Hello all,

You will be pleased to know that I have traced (with some help from Chris) the owner of the web site and have been in communication via email.
Due to several difficulties, she is unable to present the cross reference material from where she got the above mentions of both Hutchinson and Kelly. But there are positive things.
1. The George Hutchinson mentioned is the same one appearing under Geo. Hutchinson, hence the (1).
2. The Mary Kelly, aka O'Brien, is indeed the Mary Kelly of 13, Dorset Street, for under the "K" sectrion she appears three times..

KELLY (1) MARY JANE AKA MARY JANE O'BRIEN BORN LIMERICK AUGUST 1865
KELLY (1) MARY JANE LIVED IN ROOM 13,MILLERS COURT, DORSET ST 1888
KELLY (1) MARY JANE BURIED ST PATRICK'S RC CEMETERY, LEYTONSTONE 1888.

So I'm sorry Scarletpimpernel, you appear to be wrong this time. However I dont hold out much hope, yet one never knows, becasue of the mention below...

She has also provided me with a long list of every book or reference she used for the entire web site, and in here, she says, the cross references occur. She is also looking kindly through the books, in her own time, to help us.

I have the list on an email, if anyone has either a large library at home, or access to one such, and if they wish to try to help and cross reference this information, I would be most obliged.
I will send the email to them. Just send me a pm. Many thanks.

with best wishes

Phil

Phil,

Your information is facinating in that IF Mary Kelly was AKA O'Brian, then at least some of Melvin Fairclough's info was correct. He said that Insp Abberline had received a letter from a lady in Limerick stating the Kelly was a relative and her family name was O'Brian. Even after all the debunking of Fairclough's book, it makes you wonder doesn't it?

All the best
Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

You will be pleased to know that I have traced (with some help from Chris) the owner of the web site and have been in communication via email.
Due to several difficulties, she is unable to present the cross reference material from where she got the above mentions of both Hutchinson and Kelly. But there are positive things.
1. The George Hutchinson mentioned is the same one appearing under Geo. Hutchinson, hence the (1).
2. The Mary Kelly, aka O'Brien, is indeed the Mary Kelly of 13, Dorset Street, for under the "K" sectrion she appears three times..

KELLY (1) MARY JANE AKA MARY JANE O'BRIEN BORN LIMERICK AUGUST 1865
KELLY (1) MARY JANE LIVED IN ROOM 13,MILLERS COURT, DORSET ST 1888
KELLY (1) MARY JANE BURIED ST PATRICK'S RC CEMETERY, LEYTONSTONE 1888.

So I'm sorry Scarletpimpernel, you appear to be wrong this time. However I don't hold out much hope, yet one never knows, because of the mention below...

This kind lady has also provided me with a long list of every book or reference she used for the entire web site, and in here, she says, the cross references occur. She is also looking kindly through the books, in her own time, to help us.

I have the list on an email, if anyone has either a large library at home, or access to one such, and if they wish to try to help and cross reference this information, I would be most obliged.
I will send the email to them. Just send me a pm. Many thanks.

with best wishes

Phil

[scarletpimpernel]

Mary Jane Kelly is a very common name and so is Hutchinson so it could all be a coincidence. It doesn't mean anything.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Roy,

Indeed, very very likely a mistake... but better to follow it through and check up on it.. which I have done. I have more about this coming up too.. so eyes peeled!!

best wishes

Phil

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Phil,

Yes this is obviously a mistake. There is an entry for Hutchinson at the Vic. OK. Then there is an entry for Hutchinson lived with Mary Kelly. That is the mistake.

It is some kind of confusion with Joe Barnett, who lived Mary Kelly. We know they lived together. There have been whole books written about Joe Barnett and Hutch. None of them say Hutch lived with Mary Kelly. There are dissertations and tens of thousands of post here on Casebook, and none of them say Hutch lived with Mary Kelly. In fact, this site, Casebook, even has a built in bias towards Hutch, in that you have to try really hard to make a post about him as a mere witness. Under the Witnesses Section where you would start your post you would have to ignore the large banner at the top says George Hutchinson, which will re-direct your thread to be a Suspect one. And even here on Casebook, of all places, there is no information that Hutch lived with Mary Kelly.

It's a simple mistake. Put in a list of Stepney ancients by someone who doesn't know a great deal and confused Hutch with Barnett.

No big deal. Stuff happens. It has happened to me. I have seen things on the internet I wonder might be new astounding finds which turn out not to be so. I once posted a potrait drawing on a Casebook thread which I found on the internet, which said it was Tumblety. Turns out it was Oscar Wilde. Now is that wild, or what?

Roy

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,
Well summarised indeed...not withstanding this too... that we can strongly hold Hutchinson's VITAL witness statement in doubt. THAT means that Caroline Maxwell and Morris Lewis are now very important indeed. And it would mean, by mere supposition, admittedly, that Blotchy face was Hutchinson, for Astrakan man is now in serious doubt. It throws into doubt much of the summing up of the MJK murder. Timing, and doubt about MJK's (supposed) death too.

I don't know whether all this is true at all, all I know ids that I have reason to doubt things now, far styronger than before. I am endeavouring to make contact with someone about all this.

Hopefully, for all our sakes, this will turn out to be a false clue. Because if it isn't...

best wishes

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Lets suppose that Hutchinson was indeed a ex of Kellys, and somewhen in that three previous years had shared accomodation with her[ which I doubt]
What might be the significance?
We would have two ex lovers both sharing the same lodging house [ Victoria home] and a common law brother -in-law[ Dan Barnett].
Joseph Barnett however was not living there, but may well have heard some remarks made by either of the old flames,passed on by his brother.
Jealousy is a strong motive, and emotions can get out of control, and we should not forget that the millers court murder initially was believed to have been the work of a Jealous lover.
So if indeed Hutch was involved at one time with Kelly, instead of having Fleming, and J Barnett in the frame, we could now add George Hutchinson.
Would that not be intresting?
Regards Richard.

[curious]

Curious,

Sheer chance, googling!!!

besy wishes

Phil

Isn't google wonderful!

what did you search for?

curious

[Sox]

Hello Sox,

I really don't know... because the only link between the two names underneath each other is the (1) listed after Hutch's name.
It certainly IS revealing if so, and whats more throws the whole question of MJK/Hutch out in the open.
The mere MENTION that Hutchinson LIVED WITH Mary Kelly... that is startling, imho.

best wishes

Phil

It's a good find Phil, I suppose now all we need to do is trace it to it's source, and yes, quite startling.

[Phil Carter]

Curious,

Sheer chance, googling!!!

besy wishes

Phil

[curious]

This is remarkable, on a website call Stepney Folk (below)
the astounding line at the bottom of the page...
that George Hutchinson LIVED WITH Mary Kelly!!!

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:fDf45a1u5XAJ:website.lineone.net/~fight/Stepney/namesh.htm+commonweal+whitechapel+murders1888&cd=6&hl=no&ct=clnk&gl=no&client=firefox-a

best wishes

Phil

if you go to http://eastlondonhistory.com/murder-in-medieval-london

it looks as though you can get to your index,

suggesting:For more detail on the grisly history of the East End in general and Stepney in particular, go to the excellent http://website.lineone.net/~fight/Stepney/index.html

but I haven't yet found a way to get there.

How did you find this?

Thanks,

Curious

[DVV]

Aaaaaaahhhhhhh

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

David,

Actually it says ST...not SEP 88... It is Commercial ST

sorry my friend. I blinked as well.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Because as you know, I have strong reasons for believing the Hutch story, unlike any other Casebook member.
Regard s Richard.

I myself have strong reasons to believe the Sax Rohmer story... Commercial Road... Long limousine... And then appears Mr King in his astrakhan coat...
The very birth of my master Dr Fu Manchu.

Amitiés,
David