The Leander Analysis

[richardnunweek]

Hello,
The evidence is almost conclusive, that Topping was Hutch, we are reluctant to admit that [ well some are].
A lot of the doubts arise from 'The Ripper and the Royals', and the Randolph Churchill suggestion.
But we must realise, that Reg knew nothing about the whitechapel murders then , he had to borrow a book from a younger relative to understand a bit.
He was also promised a wedge of cash from Fairclough , should the book do well, and understandably went along with the upper class suspect, which after all would go well with his father 'Topping ' used to relate anyway.
Lets stick to what Topping said, 'The man resembled someone up the social ladder, and not rip the Hutchinson name about, because of a authors vision of Royalties.
Regards Richard.

[Jane Welland]

Hi Richard, Fisherman

It's possible that Reg didn't know who Jack the Ripper was, of course, but personally I find that unlikely. How many people living and working in London, with family connections to the same are unaware of Jack the Ripper? Not many, I bet. He's pretty famous, isn't he?

And besides, how is it he hadn't heard of Jack the Ripper but he knew who Randolph Churchill was? I would think myself that more people know of Jack than know of Randolph Churchill, wouldn't you?

Fisherman, I wasn't commenting on whether Toppy=Hutch directly, I was responding to Victor's post regarding the inconsistencies in the witness signatures. Not every comment made by other posters is by way of reference to the Toppy/Hutch question.

But since you ask - you are taking disparate factors which arise from evidence of variable quality and reliability and presenting them de facto.
This does not necessarily follow. It may, but not necessarily. Imagine, for a moment, that all you had was Reg's account? How would that affect your view? Imagine if you only had the signatures, and no account by Reg or anyone else? How would that affect your view?

You will doubtless respond with - 'Ah, but we have both!' Yes, but whereas the signatures are undeniably a fact of existence, the veracity of Reg's story is not, is it? I would be wary of using it to bolster the argument myself.

And then, there is that question again - if the match in signatures is so clear, convincing and obvious as you, and others, have suggested - then explain to me how it is that neither of the experts who have seen this material (whether originals or copies) have exclaimed the same?

I note that nobody has yet responded to that - perhaps because no answer is available. I don't ask to be confrontational, but to point out that observance should be made of the fact that at the very least, the experts to date have not expressed their verdict in such positive terms.

Anyway, personally, I don't have the inclination to go round in circles ad infinitum - the question is still open in my view, there are too many issues that I refuse to take at face value without further query - whether others choose to accept without question what they perceive as good evidence is of course, their perogative.

Best to all

Jane x

[harry]

As far as I am able to establish,Hutchinson does not say how long he had resided in the area.He says he had known Kelly for some time,but Kelly was dead,so if Hutchinson was an alias,and not known as such by anyone else local in Whitechapel,why change the name?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Harry

I wonder what name he was using at the Victoria Home.

[The Good Michael]

I wonder what name he was using at the Victoria Home.

The police must have checked him out, and he must have been living under that name. Anything else is incredibly improbable.

This would mean that he was using the alias prior to killing Kelly (and the others?), so he must have planned something nefarious or why else use an alias?

Of course this means it is all very unlikely.

Cheers,

Mike

[Ben]

"Geo" is an abbreviation as we know, but signatures generally don't alter between George and Geo for no good reason, especially when they're being written by the same person within minutes if not seconds of eachother. They generally stick to one or the other. The fact that it occured here may imply that the writer wasn't accustomed to writing that signature, which in turn might imply that he was using an alias. I'm tickled by the counter-suggestion that he was in a "hurry" to sign, so he decided not to bother with the time consuming "rge". A frivolous affectation anyway. But then that observation was made by Mike who, let us face it, has been responsible for some absolute howlers of later. Take this one for example:

Mind-numbingly stupid if you are a murderer. It's happened before, or since, but very, very seldom with regards to the numbers of murders committed throughout history, so the odds are way against it happening.

The first sentence is just provably false, since many of the offenders who have resorted to an alias have come from the more intelligent end of the criminal spectrum. Secondly, if you seriously believe that murderers resorting to aliases happens "very, very seldom", then you're only reinforcing everyone else of your lack of knowledge, since in reality, alias-use crops up fairly often amongst serial killers.

This would mean that he was using the alias prior to killing Kelly (and the others?), so he must have planned something nefarious or why else use an alias? Of course this means it is all very unlikely.

What exactly are you describing as "very unlikely" here?

That some degree of pre-crime planning may have occured, which can easily include the use of an alias? I think if you ask any expert on criminal psychopathology whether they'd consider that "unlikely", they'd quickly disabuse you of that obvious fallacy.

[Ben]

Fisherman,

You must realise that's a circular argument.

"But don´t you think that the question why a man who was NOT named George Hutchinson but still signed that name, coincidentally stumbled on a handstyle that according to Leander is very much alike one of the very few, ACTUAL George Hutchinsons that were about"

That's only an interesting coincidence for those who have already decided that the handwriting matches very well. For those who listen to the only full expert opinion on the comparison, which is to the effect that the handwriting doesn't match, and are inclined to treat Leander's radically contrasting "spontaneous comment" with caution at the very least, the dismissal of a match increases the likelihood that one of the other George Hutchinson's in the area at the time had better-matching handwriting, and I can guarantee that you haven't seen most of those.

I hope you didn't use that post as another opportunity to repeat your perpetually challenged "Leander thinks we have a match" assertion?

Best regards,
Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

My suspicion is that he was doing a Violenia

Could be, Jon.

Roy

[Victor]

"Geo" is an abbreviation as we know, but signatures generally don't alter between George and Geo for no good reason, especially when they're being written by the same person within minutes if not seconds of eachother. They generally stick to one or the other. The fact that it occured here may imply that the writer wasn't accustomed to writing that signature, which in turn might imply that he was using an alias. I'm tickled by the counter-suggestion that he was in a "hurry" to sign, so he decided not to bother with the time consuming "rge". A frivolous affectation anyway.

Hi Ben,
Well that would depend upon them being written within minutes of eachother which is by no means certain unless you are stretching the definition of minutes to include tens of minutes, and the observation that he signed one "Geo" as per his usual custom and then was asked to sign the complete "George" for the final page is a valid explanation. You could even include the first "George" with the flourish on the "H" as a trying to impress opening gambit, then the second "Geo" as per normal custom, and third requested to sign full name.

The very inclusion of "Geo" suggests to me that George would be his real name and that Geo was his usual form of signature, although the time consuming argument is weak when taken without apathy and\or laziness, conciseness, familiarity\routine.

KR,
Vic.

[Ben]

Hi Vic,

Well that would depend upon them being written within minutes of eachother which is by no means certain unless you are stretching the definition of minutes to include tens of minutes

Well, even in that event, it would be unusual for someone to change their signature in so short a space of time. While Geo is a well-known and traditional abbreviation of George, it's generally the case that anyone with the first name George will continue to use either the full name, the abbreviation, or just an initial when writing their signature. There isn't a lot of chopping and changing, especially on the same document. My signature has always included my first thee initials, never a full name.

the observation that he signed one "Geo" as per his usual custom and then was asked to sign the complete "George" for the final page is a valid explanation.

I tend to disagree, since it would mean that he was asked, for some reason, to sign the second page before any others, which would be very unusual. Either he signed the end page first, and then was asked to do the same for the first two, or he signed pages 1, 2 and 3 in numerical order.

All the best,
Ben

[Jane Welland]

What if...

He signed his name on the first page, signed 'Geo' on the second page - pretty common - and maybe he used it commonly, maybe not - and was then told by Badham ' Sign your full name please, Mr Hutchinson' and so on the third signature, he did.

Easy and logical

I don't think it has to be any more complicated than that.

Jane x

[Victor]

He signed his name on the first page, signed 'Geo' on the second page - pretty common - and maybe he used it commonly, maybe not - and was then told by Badham ' Sign your full name please, Mr Hutchinson' and so on the third signature, he did.

Easy and logical

I don't think it has to be any more complicated than that.

Jane x

Thank you Jane, that was what I was getting at.

1st - done with a flourish on the "H" and full "George" to impress
(delay where maybe the 2nd page is written or read to him)
2nd - usual "Geo" signature
(another unquantifiable delay)
3rd - "Please sign your full name" etc.

Or maybe he got more and more nervous about being in the police station, or tired, or the opposite he got concerned and more alert.

KR,
Vic.

[Ben]

Seems reasonable to me, Jane.

Of course, if - and it's a big if - the man's "usual" signature consisted of the abbreviation "Geo" followed by the surname, that would pose potential problems with any Toppy identification since there's no evidence that Toppy used any such abbreviation. It wouldn't surprise me if the police insisted on full names, and it would tally with Bob Hinton's observation that it was police proceedure to include full names (including middle names or initials where applicable) in witness statements.

All the best,
Ben

[Victor]

Of course, if - and it's a big if - the man's "usual" signature consisted of the abbreviation "Geo" followed by the surname, that would pose potential problems with any Toppy identification since there's no evidence that Toppy used any such abbreviation. It wouldn't surprise me if the police insisted on full names, and it would tally with Bob Hinton's observation that it was police proceedure to include full names (including middle names or initials where applicable) in witness statements.

Mitigated by the big gap between the statement and the known signatures for Toppy, during which time the Geo abbreviation could have gone out of fashion, or he changed his mind. In 1888 how often would someone sign something anyway?

[Ben]

Mitigated by the big gap between the statement and the known signatures for Toppy, during which time the Geo abbreviation could have gone out of fashion, or he changed his mind.

Not really, since we know full that that Toppy's signature registered a remakable consistency over a 13-year period, i.e. between 1898 and 1911, and the differences with the statement signature remained different over that time frame. There's no reason to think that Geo is any more or less likely to go out of fashion that closed-looped G's or skyward pointing n's, but both remained a constant feature of Toppy's handwriting over the aforementioned time frame.