Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[Sam Flynn]

Labour demand must be considered here. Supply and demand, naturally.

Indeed, Jane, and we know that the artisanal trades - construction work, together with its associated trades - were subject to peaks and troughs in demand. Now, if anything characterised building in London during the latter quarter of the 19th Century, it was stagnation if not demolition. Indeed, throughout Britain, there seems to have been a bit of a slump going on at the time - and plumbers turn up in the bankruptcy columns of the London Gazette with remarkably frequency during the mid/late 1880s. Not that I'm suggesting that Hutchinson père went bankrupt, mind you - I'm only observing that times were hard.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"This has been quite a friendly thread so far.

Please don't spoil it with antagonsitic remarks concerning unrelated topics, Fisherman."

I would not dream of it, Ben - myself, I have never had any trouble handling innocent jokes, and I simply made the assumption that much the same would be the case with you. I seem to remember that you thought Crystals´ joke about calling Frank Leander was a costly one...? But, of course, it was at my expense that time over.

Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

... plumbers turn up in the bankruptcy columns of the London Gazette with remarkably frequency during the mid/late 1880s.

... The fact that they were about to come under increasing regulation from 1887 onwards might have had something to do with it, if this article is anything to go by:

The Times, 30th November 1886

THE COMPANY OF PLUMBERS

About two years ago, a movement was set on foot by the Worshipful Company of Plumbers, to promote the better education and registration of members of the craft, and thus to secure thorough and intelligent workmanship in a matter which so vitally concerns not only the individual but the public. Last evening a dinner was given a the Albion, Aldersgate-street, by the Master, the Wardens and Court of the Company to the Lord Mayor and the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex, and to about 150 gentlemen who were invited to meet them. The chair was taken by Mr Alderman Stuart Knill, Master of the Company... [a huge list of nobs and toffs follows].

The Chairman said it was satisfactory to find that the plumbers and the public were virtually of one mind as to the urgent need for some check to the present evils associated with what was called "scamped" plumbing; and the Company was supported on one side by plumbers of all grades and located in almost all parts of the kingdom; while, on the other side, it was upheld by public sanitary authorities, the medical profession, the architects, and others concerned in maintaining public health and comfort.

The summarized results of the investigations of the Company might be said to establish chiefly these things:--

1. That the trade already contained a large number, and was subject to a continual influx, of unqualified men;

2. That the deterioration of the trade was due in part to the falling off of the apprenticeship system, and in part to competition [between] builders obscuring the real lines of distinction between the crafts and allowing labourers rather than plumbers to carry out plumbers' work;

3. That the execution of defective and dishonest plumbers' work was rendered easy by the laxity or entire absence of official supervision and control.

To state the case yet more briefly, at the present time no kind of recognized authority existed touching either the qualification of plumbers or the efficiency of the work done by them. This anomalous state of things was now, in some degree, met by the scheme of Registration, which [now embraced] several hundred plumbers in various parts of the kingdom.

The registration was conducted by special committee [and] plumbers who could satisfy the registering committee of sufficient practical experience in the trade were registered at once. Those who could not were required to undergo an examination. He felt he might promise that the Company would continue to do its part, but the movement must have the extended support of the sanitary authorities, architects and the public at large to render it really successful, and thus remove the evils which the plumbers and the public now suffer by reason of there being neither qualification, test, nor regulation of plumbers' work.

[Ben]

Fair enough, Fish. Thankyou for clarifying.

Hi Gareth,

I wouldn't regard the problem as a wholly insurmountable one, necessarily, but it remains fairly major as far as I'm concerned. It is the very fact you allude to - that times were hard - that seems so heavily at odds with a decision to forgo the potential for a quicky entry into a profession that would otherwise entail a lengthy probation period, in favour of taking up the trade of a groom and gravitating towards the worst pocket of the East End where the vast majority of the doss house-dwelling populace were in truly dire financial straits.

It would be another thing altogether if Toppy had undertaken his apprenticeship as a plumber, entered the trade, and then fallen on hard times, obliging him to do some labouring on the side in undesirable locations, but our f(r)iend from 1888 clearly had nothing whatsoever to do with plumbing at that stage of his life, and I can't see him being in a position to rectify that in a hurry.*

*...Especially in light of the tightening up of regulations, as evinced by the article you provided! Thanks for sharing that. Very interesting. In other words, it was easier to secure work prior to the late 1880s but more difficult afterwards, courtesy of these regulations. Quite how Toppy managed to gain entry into the profession after those regulations were enforced I don't know. (I don't think he did. I think he became a plumber way in advance of them).

[Fisherman]

Thanks a lot for providing that piece, Sam. It will come as a comfort to you that I read it somewhat differently than Ben obviously did.
What I see here is a text that proves that up to 1886 - at least - Ben´s assertion that plumbers were people with a seven-year education behind them, does not hold true at all. Unskilled labourers worked as plumbers and "neither qualification, test, nor regulation" lay behind much of that work.

Moreover, it is stated that the efforts to change this state of affairs on behalf ot the more genuine plumbers and their organizations had been instigated two years earlier - but apparently to very little avail.

I also notice that the registration they were hoping to undertake from 1886 and forwards, would have to be a measure that relied to a very large extent on the free will of those who aspired to plumbership - there would have been little hope for the trade to sober up within the space of a few years.

Therefore, I consider it very credible that Toppy may well have gained his title as a plumber by joining forces with his father in the space inbetween 1888 and 1891.

That is how I read the stuff, Sam, so nurturing a faint hope on your behalf - if, indeed, you were so bold - that it was not a waste altoghether to publish such a decisive piece of information, actually would not be totally futile.

The very best, Sam!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Plumbing the depths...

It looked like the clamp-down on "scampy" plumbers continued, and that the need to demonstrate formal certification in plumbing became increasingly more important, and effective, over the next few years...

The Times, August 11th 1887

THE CITY & GUILDS OF LONDON INSTITUTE

The system of practical examinations, which is necessarily of the greatest importance in testing the skill of handicraftsmen, appears from this year's report to have been further extended by the Council of the institute. Practical examinations are now held in weaving and pattern-designing, carpentry and joinery, metal-plate work, printing, plumbers' work, and mine surveying. The results of the examinations in plumbers' work seem to have been far from satisfactory, and fully justify the action of the Plumbers' Company in requiring all competent plumbers, as certified by the examination, to be registered, so as to enable the public to distinguish between efficient and inefficient craftsmen.


The Times, December 2nd 1887

THE PLUMBERS' COMPANY

The Master, in proposing the toast, referred to the work of the Company in connexion with the registration of plumbers, and observed that up to the present the Company had been able to grant certificates to 1,185 efficient craftsmen. Many of these had come a very long distance at considerable personal expense to pass the examination, but the Company hoped to save them that expense in the future by instituting provincial centres, many of which were now in existence.

Sir James Paget, in proposing a toast of "Prosperity to Technical Education", expressed the hope that, by the movement with which the Plumbers' Compnay had instituted, the renown of the great City companies would be increased. The system of apprenticeship, by which the city companies formerly worked, had died out, and had come to a natural end. It was now being gradually replaced by a system of technical education.


The Times, November 27th 1888

THE PLUMBERS' COMPANY

This company gave a banquet at the Saddlers' Hall, Cheapside, last evening. A large number was present, including the Lord Mayor (Alderman Whitehead), the Earl of Denbigh, Sir Hufton Bufton-Tufton [made that last one up... suffice to say, more nobs and toffs are listed ]

The Master sketched at some length the origin of the Plumbers' Company, and the progress wich had been made in the movement for the better education and registration of plumbers. In 1884 a congress was held at which a number of London and provincial plumbers met, and from that beginning the present movement sprung. The contract system had been mentioned at that congress as one of the chief objects for reform, and he thought that the cause of the execration of modern plumbers lay in the ignorance of the public that they did not carry out their own plans, but those of other people, who were often grossly incompetent.

The numbers registered were increasing year by year, and the examinations were being made more frequent. To show the value of these, he mentioned that in some examinations as many as 75 per cent of the applicants failed to pass, and at the last held only one-third of the candidates succeeded in passing.


The Times, March 4th 1889

CERTIFICATED PLUMBERS.-- The clerk to the Plumbers' Company has received the following letter with reference to the work of plumbers in connexion with the sanitary conditions of London dwellings: --

"Dear Mr. Coles,

You will remember that not long ago I told you that the Duke of Westminster, feeling the very great importance, from a sanitary point of view, of good plumbers' work in houses, and appreciating the exertions of the Plumbers' Company in that direction, had decided that none but certificated plumbers were to be employed in new buildings on his estate. You weill be interested to know that every building contract on this estate provides as follows:-- 'No plumber is to be employed upon the works unless he has the certificate of his efficiency from the Worshipful Company of Plumbers'.

I remain, yours very truly, H.T. Boodle"

[Ben]

What I see here is a text that proves that up to 1886 - at least - Ben´s assertion that plumbers were people with a seven-year education behind them, did not hold true at all.

Did you even read or remotely understand the implications of the article Gareth provided?

It has emerged that it was easier to become a plumber prior to 1886, which meant that Toppy had even less incentive to resort to the slums of Whitechapel. Why would he endure such degradations and squalor if he could gain entry into the profession? I say easily, for two reasons: A) Because his father was already in the plumbing trade, and B) Because the restrictions were clearly very lax prior to 1886.

After 1886 the regulations were tightened, and yet it is only after the tightening of these regulations that you want Toppy to have suddenly entered the plumbing profession. Thanks to Gareth's article, we learn that it became even more difficult to become a plumber after 1886, with little or no apprenticeship to speak of, and at an age when apprenticeships weren't generally offered,

The questions begged by the following revelations are as follows:

1) Why didn't he enter his father's profession, with all the relative security in entailed, when it was relatively easy to do so?

2) How did he manage to become a plumber so suddently after those restictions had been imposed?

I mean, honestly, if we're to actually learn something from eachother on this website and benefit from the exchagne of ideas, it's essential to take newly shared snippets of information as they stand, and not by foisting unnacceptable interpretations on them. Force-feeding evidence into a conclusion you've already decided on is a bit irritating.

[Sam Flynn]

The Duke of Westminster

What's interesting about that last snippet from 1889 is that, if Toppy's address in 1891 had anything to do with his working "out West", then he'd have found it rather difficult to find employment, given that the Duke of Westminster owned most of the West End, and that he insisted on plumbers passing their City & Guilds before they were allowed to work on his estate.

[Sam Flynn]

Thought I'd better highlight this one again...

The Times, 30th November 1886

[...]

2. That the deterioration of the trade was due in part to the falling off of the apprenticeship system, and in part to competition [between] builders obscuring the real lines of distinction between the crafts and allowing labourers rather than plumbers to carry out plumbers' work

[Ben]

Indeed, it's worth highlighting that one, Gareth.

What seems most unusual, in light of this revelation, is that the statement-making George Hutchinson didn't jump on the bandwagon and do precisely what you've emboldended above. He gives his trade as a groom (to the press at least), and is described as a temporarily unemployed "labourer". No pretence at plumbing at all. But if he ever found an opportunity to apply his labouring tricks to jobs that should have been carried out by a professional plumber, he certainly couldn't have continued doing that once the 1886 regulations had been imposed. He would not have been considered a genuine plumber, like Toppy was, after that.

Fascinating stuff.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

He gives his trade as a groom (to the press at least), and is described as a temporarily unemployed "labourer". No pretence at plumbing at all.

Perhaps he really wasn't a plumber then, Ben, and didn't succeed in gaining City & Guilds certification until a year or so later - which looks entirely feasible to me. Of course, I'd be taking speculation a little too far if I pointed out that the headquarters of the City & Guilds in Giltspur Street, EC1, is only a mile's walk from Wentworth Street, Whitechapel Seriously, I'm not suggesting he was taking his exams in November 1888!

[Fisherman]

Ben:

"Did you even read or remotely understand the implications of the article Gareth provided?"

Yes. And yes.

"It has emerged that it was easier to become a plumber prior to 1886, which meant that Toppy had even less incentive to resort to the slums of Whitechapel. Why would he endure such degradations and squalor if he could gain entry into the profession?"

You seem to know a lot more about Hutchinson than the rest of us, Ben; What exact "degradation" and "squalor" are we speaking of here?
Would you not say that since we know that Hutchinson said he gave Kelly money from time to time - and rather substantial money too - that he may perhaps not have lived such a squalid life? Nor was he pointed out as a pauper, was he - no, a man of military appearance was what was said! So maybe you need to hold your horses somewhat, Ben, since we do not have a clue as to what he did workwise in them years and where he got money enough to spend on Kelly.

"After 1886 the regulations were tightened, and yet it is only after the tightening of these regulations that you want Toppy to have suddenly entered the plumbing profession. Thanks to Gareth's article, we learn that it became even more difficult to become a plumber after 1886, with little or no apprenticeship to speak of, and at an age when apprenticeships weren't generally offered"

Thanks to Sams articleS (it´s plural), we know that the occupation was crowded with common labourers before and AFTER 1886, Ben. You are bound to realize that once you read the material. Moreover, I have a feeling that if Toppy decided on a plumbing carreer after 1886, it would have done his course all the good in the world to have that plumber father.

So, in conclusion:

"Why didn't he enter his father's profession, with all the relative security in entailed, when it was relatively easy to do so?"

Two (of a number of) reasons may have been that he could have preferred to try and make his own life, and his father may have only have been able to secure what work he could manage on his own. The articles and information provided by Sam (the material you ask me if I have read and understood, that is, Ben) points out very clearly that the times were bad, and lots of people were put out of work. If we add to this that phony plumbers, probably ready to do plumbing for next to nothing paywise, would have crushed many a "legal" plumbers business, a picture emerges where we can easily see why Toppy could have started out as something else that a plumber.

"How did he manage to become a plumber so suddently after those restictions had been imposed?"

Because - as you can see from the texts - they were not effectively imposed at all. And just like Sam says, he may have gained his certificate at a later stage.

"if we're to actually learn something from eachother on this website and benefit from the exchagne of ideas, it's essential to take newly shared snippets of information as they stand"

Hallelujah, Ben - does that involve the judgement of renowned document examiners like Frank Leander...?

Fisherman

[Brenda]

Toppy's father may not have been inclined to help him out with establishing a secure career until he stopped boozing and giving money to women of ill-repute.

[The Good Michael]

Toppy's father may not have been inclined to help him out with establishing a secure career until he stopped boozing and giving money to women of ill-repute.

Toppy's father may have said to the ne'er-do-well, "You want to work with horse? Go ahead, you'll see that it ain't so easy, and then maybe you'll see that the plumber's trade, though devoid of glamor, is a stable and necessary one."

Fisherman, a caution if you will. It is sufficient for all of us to realize that acquisition of a trade and even change of trade was commonplace in the LVP without trying to create some sort of story about tearful reunion between Toppy and Pappy and consequent business partnership. The argument that a man may easily migrate from groom to plumber based upon normal situations and living conditions stands firm. Our side needs to avoid the path of refutation based upon agenda, what ifs, and might have beens, in order to stay in the fore. Indeed, George's redemption as upstanding citizen is just on the horizon.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Hi Mike!

"It is sufficient for all of us to realize that acquisition of a trade and even change of trade was commonplace in the LVP without trying to create some sort of story about tearful reunion between Toppy and Pappy and consequent business partnership."

Absolutely, Mike. And to be honest, I never created such a story - I just pointed to the suggestion that having a plumber father may have helped along when Toppy chose the same occupation. It could have been about things like business contacts, using his fathers better rates when buying plumbing attire or asking how to go about things - or, just as you say, they may have had no contact whatsoever about plumbing (or anything else).

"The argument that a man may easily migrate from groom to plumber based upon normal situations and living conditions stands firm."

So it does, Mike.

"Our side needs to avoid the path of refutation based upon agenda"

I am not proposing an agenda, Mike - I am fighting it. And sometimes that means that I fight my own beliefs, for the sake of sanity. One example is how I defend the possibility that Astrakhan man may have existed, and that Hutch may have seen all the things he said he did, and that Kelly may have been on the streets at two ó clock in the morning; my own belief is that she was NOT there, she stayed in her room, at least partially intoxicated, and her killer knew where to find her. That would mean that Hutch never met Astrakhan or Kelly in the street that night, of course.
But as long as Hutch can´t be proven a liar (or mistaken) in this respect, I will not listen to those who say that it is a proven thing. And so I am willing to fight for a cause that goes against my own beliefs, and I take that fight simply because I am none too fond of agendas.

...thus I´ll try and keep your sound advice at hand at every time, Mike, since - just like you - I am convinced that in due course, Toppys role as the Dorset Street witness will be an established fact.

All the best,
Fisherman