Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[Rubyretro]

PS Lechmere -if you go into ' Quick Links' and scroll down to 'online' you can
see what people are reading or replying to.

[curious]

Noticing the many discrepancies in Barnett's story about MJK, I naturally assumed that he was lying. I even though his "stammer" was a sign of nervousness FROM the prevarication. But then I read Chris Scott's excellent book. He suggests that it could be that MJK was lying to Barnett. Quite plausible.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
There is another way discrepancies occur in second-hand stories.

When people talk about their lives over a period of weeks or months, they can be telling the truth -- bits and pieces at a time. Their memories, of course, color the stories.

Plus, they tell one part now, another later. In the teller's head, it is all one piece. The teller may think it makes sense, but may not really have expressed him/herself exactly the way he/she intended.

Then, the person hearing the stories assembles the parts so that the whole, as the listener hears it, is somewhat askew.

People don't always hear and understand what the person talking thinks he said. It's simply misunderstanding. Then, once someone is dead and you can't ask any more questions, well . . . . perhaps you just do the best you can as you tell the story as you understood it not as it actually was.

I suspect that when MJK first met Barnett, she was working him for a "permanent" situation to take her out of prostitution. It seems natural, to me at least, that she was presenting herself in as favorable a light as possible. And probably had to continue with the charade. Perhaps she did not tell out right lies, but shaded her story to appeal to Barnett.

curious

[lynn cates]

bedeviling details

Hello Velma. That is quite true. But it strikes me that at least one detail should have been corroborated after all this time.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. That is quite true. But it strikes me that at least one detail should have been corroborated after all this time.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
I think I know somewhat your thinking on this, and I essentially agree with it and think that if MJK were really MJK something would have turned up by now.

I was discussing second-hand stories in general (having a boring day), using MJK and Barnett as examples when they really weren't. Sorry.

How's the search going?

best,
Velma

[lynn cates]

etc

Hello Velma. Oh, no need to be sorry. It was an excellent question at any rate.

The search? Slow and painful--did I mention expensive? (heh-heh)

Permit me to recommend Molony's "The Phoenix Park Murders." It actually shows step by step a real LVP crime investigation, along with the bits of genius and the flawed reasoning. Very helpful--a must read.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

The search? Slow and painful--did I mention expensive? (heh-heh)

Permit me to recommend Molony's "The Phoenix Park Murders." It actually shows step by step a real LVP crime investigation, along with the bits of genius and the flawed reasoning. Very helpful--a must read.

Cheers.
LC

So -- terribly, terribly painful then?

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll try to pick up a copy.

I realize the times were so different then to now. I just wonder if we can understand in any real way how differently people must have thought about things during that era. I'm thinking of MJK and Barnett and their relationship in particular (if it was as it appears. May have been something very, very different). Women really had so very few employment choices and almost had to have a man in their life to survive. I doubt that we can begin to understand their lives and their thought processes.

oh, well, too deep. I need to go back to bed and try to get to sleep.

later,

Velma

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rubyretro,
I am afraid I do not come under the '' Fantasy world of Richard'' as you accuse me of.
I believe it was you who privately E mailed me , offering your sister who was ''into research'' to gain access to the relevant Radio Times editions.
I assume that this never came to pass.
As I have repeatedly stated on Casebook , the programme in question most certainly appeared in a edition of the booklet, between the years stated,1972-75, It had to have done so , otherwise I would never had known of its airing , that was no illusion.
I Remember sitting on my aunts settee[ where we then lived] waiting for the programme to start, it was around 8pm one weekday, and ran for approx 40minutes.
The programme was called [ to the best of my memory] ''The man that saw Jack'', and it featured the Hutchinson sighting[ which I was familiar with].
I Believe that a description of the show was in the rear pages, left hand side , but that ''blast from the past'' did not rear its head under the Nunweek family returned home from our search from Brighton University, having searched only the front pages of features.
I am confident that if any one, has the inclination to venture on such a enterprise, they will find the very programme, that featured the son of the witness, which was known to have been Reg[ as featured in The Ripper and the Royals] for obvious reasons ie,.that the same story was repeated.
I Can assure everyone on Casebook , that my mind in my twenties, was not linked to a imaginary world, and albeit, my body has changed, I am still sharp , and free from fantasy's at least one hopes..
Regards Richard.

[Stephen Thomas]

As I have repeatedly stated on Casebook , the programme in question most certainly appeared in a edition of the booklet, between the years stated,1972-75, It had to have done so, otherwise I would never had known of its airing , that was no illusion.
I remember sitting on my aunts settee [ where we then lived] waiting for the programme to start, it was around 8pm one weekday, and ran for approx 40minutes.

Well I for one don't doubt for a moment that you heard this radio show.

One doesn't mis-remember such things. What would be the point?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Stephen,
Thanks for that, I am not the kind of person that makes up tales, to have my posts discussed on Casebook , I am a genuine long standing ,consistent member of this site, and have had a fascination with this case since the age of 12.
Just because no other member heard a radio broadcast some 37 years ago, does not label myself as 'mistaken, or perhaps suffering from mental illness.
Regards Richard.

[Rubyretro]

Richard -that radio programme might exist, or you might be honestly mistaken.

If you were, I'm not suggesting that you made it up, nor that you are suffering from a mental illness !

Creating false memories is something very common, and we all do it to a certain degree. Did you look at the links that I put up about it ?

One of the links was about a study featuring Bugs Bunny at Disney Land

(Bugs is a Warner Brothers character, and is not represented at Disney Land).

In the new research, Pickrell and Loftus divided 120 subjects into four groups. The subjects were told they were going to evaluate advertising copy, fill out several questionnaires and answer questions about a trip to Disneyland.

* The first group read a generic Disneyland ad that mentioned no cartoon characters.

* The second group read the same copy and was exposed to a 4-foot-tall cardboard figure of Bugs Bunny that was casually placed in the interview room. No mention was made of Bugs Bunny.

* The third, or Bugs group, read the fake Disneyland ad featuring Bugs Bunny.

* The fourth, or double exposure group, read the fake ad and also saw the cardboard rabbit.

This time, 30 percent of the people in the Bugs group later said they remembered or knew they had met Bugs Bunny when they visited Disneyland and 40 percent of the people in the double exposure group reported the same thing.

"'Remember' means the people actually recall meeting and shaking hands with Bugs,"

30% is a huge amount, and nobody would suggest that all those people were dishonest or mad !

This is the famous 'Lost in the Mall' experiment about memory :
a 14 year old boy named Chris was supplied with descriptions of three true events that supposedly happened in Chris's childhood involving Chris's mother and older brother Jim. Jim also helped construct one false event. Chris was instructed to write about all four events every day for five days, offering any facts or descriptions he could remember about each event. If he could not recall any additional details he was instructed to write "I don't remember".
The false memory was introduced in a short paragraph. It reminded Chris that he was five at the time, that Chris was lost at the University City shopping mall in Spokane, Washington where the family often went shopping. That Chris was crying heavily when he was rescued by an elderly man and reunited with his family.

Over the first five days, Chris remembered more and more about getting lost. He remembered that the man who rescued him was "really cool." He remembered being scared that he would never see his family again. He remembered his mother scolding him.

A few weeks later Chris was reinterviewed. He rated his memories on a scale from l (not clear at all) to ll (very, very clear). For the three true memories, Chris gave ratings of 1, 10, and 5. For the false shopping mall memory, he assigned his second-highest rating: 8. When asked to describe his getting lost memory, Chris provided rich details about the toy store where he got lost and his thoughts at the time ("Uh-oh. I'm in trouble now.") He remembered the man who rescued him as wearing a blue flannel shirt, kind of old, kind of bald on top.... "and, he had glasses."

Chris was soon told that one of the memories was false. Could he guess? He selected one of the real memories. When told that the memory of being lost was the false one, he had trouble believing it.

I should think that if all the people on Casebook were put into similar experiments, then a good many of us would create false memories too-
infact, we probably already have done without knowing it.

To go back to Reg Hutchinson -if Fairclough told him that it was a 'fact' that
his father had been Hutch the witness, and then gave him the details by asking leading questions that provided the information, then Reg could very well have started 'remembering' Toppy talking to him about it.

It doesn't make anyone dishonest nor 'mentally ill'. It is a real possibility.

[Rubyretro]

I believe it was you who privately E mailed me , offering your sister who was ''into research'' to gain access to the relevant Radio Times editions.
I assume that this never came to pass.

That is true, Richard, but my sister says that she is going to do all sorts of things that she never gets around to doing after the initial enthusiasm wears off ! She was taken up with job hunting at the time, and I guess that now she's found a job, she's too busy.

However, when I'm next in England -since I'll be staying near Brighton- I'll try and sort through those Radio Times myself. That is because I'd love to prove you right. I'm not certain that you'd believe me, if I didn't find anything though !

Mike suggested that someone contacted Melvyn Fairclough, who is apparently still alive and living in Surrey, and his publishers are :
'Gerald Duckworth and Co ltd.' they have a web site and you can send an e-mail asking for Mr Fairclough's contact details. I haven't done so, and I feel that it should be someone entirely neutral that prepares a list of questions to put to Mr Fairclough.

[Lechmere]

In popped into Colindale today to join, never having been there before, and to get the measure of the place.
They seem to have regional issues of the Radio Times from the early 1970s there on microfilm.
If someone can confirm the rough date and region I will have a proper look soon.
Or has it been confirmed before that it can't be found on any copies they hold?
And if so would it be on a copy only held by Brighton University? If so I can go there as my own primary area of research has a Sussex connection that I am going to 'check out' soon.

Also if someone can point me in the direction of Melvyn Fairclough I will contact him.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lechmere.
Two years ago [ approx] I accompanied by my wife, and eldest daughter, got a two hour time slot to search through The Radio times editions from 1971-may 1975.
To my annoyance,[ not realised till later], we only looked through the front pages up to the start of the programme lists, but left the rear pages which features information on several airings.
I lived in Reigate then therefore SE Edition, and I would take a educated guess that editions from 1973-75 should be searched , but rear pages [ left hand side] only.
I wish to god, someone would at least prove this programme did exist, it has been a major frustration to me over the years..
Regards Richard.

[Lechmere]

My family live near Redhill and they get BBC London TV.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lechmere,
A small word indeed, that is where I currently live, and as for the TV ditto.
Richard.