Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[Sam Flynn]

Some claim that it is unlikely that Toppy would have moved from the Booth poverty map blue of the Victoria Home to the light pink of Warren Street.

There were working-class lodging-houses in Warren Street, too. Besides, Booth made the mistake of starting his survey in the worst part of London, which is a bit like setting out to map average height by calibrating your tools in Lilliput. Consequently, when Booth widened his sphere of interest, his categories - and especially his colour coding - become rather less reliable. Taking his maps at face-value, one might believe that the less wretched parts of the East End were on a par with the second-division streets of Knightsbridge and Fitzrovia.

[Ben]

Hi Snapper,

I'm struggling to explain where either the interviewer or interviewee could have got this information from.

It's not so much a case of obtaining information, but rather one of invention. Eyewitnesses and pay-offs have gone hand-in hand throughout history, and it wouldn't have required much originality on Reg's part to invent a payment - in this case the ludicrous sum of 100 shillings (which the police would never have paid) to conceal his knowledge about Lord Randolph Churchill encountering Kelly on the night of her death. The Wheeling Register, on the other hand, conceded that they were printing nothing more than "gossip" from across the pond, and the quality of that gossip is hinted at by their curious claim that Joseph Barnett was "roaring drunk" at the inquest, and was now living with another woman. Evidently, they'd got wind of the fact that Hutchinson had been discredited as they described his description as "invented", but somewhere along the way picked up the erroneous piece of "gossip" that he'd "cleverly" pocketted "five times his usual salary" from the police as a result of this invention.

All the best,
Ben

[The Snapper]

Wheeling Register

With this buisiness of the reward I wonder if the Wheeling Register isn't due a little credit for once. Given the infant state of the internet at the time of the book I'm struggling to explain where either the interviewer or interviewee could have got this information from. With this in mind I have a mental picture of both parties encouraging each other. A heady mix of truth and fantasy. In my mind at least though Reg might actually be repeating something he was told rather than something read or fed. That still doesn't make the story of the reward true but I feel he might be a little more credible than I thought.

Snapper

[Malcolm X]

sorry, i messed up that post a bit and you cant reedit it after 1/2 hour.

Ivor walked the route of Mary Kelly/ GH, in Dorset st as it was before it was redeveloped, and he did this with his friends, this was many years ago and this was when he spoke to GH son.

he believed what GH son told him, but not after he walked the crime scene, this is hard for me to recall now, but it was something like this.

but this doesn't help us much, because he never met the real GH, only his son, and his son is bound to defend his father; even if he knows sod all about him...... and you can bet he didn't know everything

so you can forget all of this, because what is important is :- Ivor Edwards said, ``there's no way GH could have described LA DE DA as well as he did, or heard what Kelly said to him, all of that is rubbish ``.

i said to Ivor ``bloody hell, what do you make of this murder then ``.

Ivor replied ``i've no idea, i dont understand that night at all``.

you have here GH who appears as JTR, i could portray him in a book as JTR easily, both BEN and i can for sure.......

1.....but there are things here that still seriously bother me, GH describes a tarted up version of George Chapman too well, he almost describes a photo of him !

2.....for GH to be a strong JTR, then those signatures must not match, JTR could be him i suppose, but your gut sais no !

basically GH is either JTR, wasn't there, or saw LA DE DA, but bullshitted his description to make him appear even more guilty.

the only thing i can say that's different now to 4 years ago is:- he might have seen JTR but over emphasised his dress to make him appear more guilty.

to me the killer is either GH or George Chapman, so it's as it was 10 years ago

[Malcolm X]

the person who spoke to Toppy's son, if this is what you're talking about is Ivor Edwards, from the old R D'ONSTON JTR Forum from years ago.

He actually met and interviewed him, Ivor told me that he believed that Toppy was telling the truth...... Ivor said to me ``i think Toppy was telling the truth``, Ivor then went on to say roughly, ``i dont know what went on that night, it's very strange, i dont really understand the Kelly murder``

i dont know what has happened to Ivor Edwards since, because this was years ago, or if he was telling the truth etc, but he did not shout his mouth off about this, he told me this via private email ( maybe because it cast doubts over R D ONSTON) ...but also, Ivor Edwards said to me, to contradict himself, ``i walked Dorset st years ago to reinact that night, and there's no way that Toppy could have described the suspect so well, or even heard what Mary said to him ``. !!!!

so it's all a bit confusing i'm afraid, Tom Wescott might know more about this.

[Lechmere]

Yes there are still six pubs in the village I think

I'll probably do my search at Colindale next week

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lechmere,
London version Radio Times.. yes.
As for Bletchingley , I have frequently some good ale houses there my friend.
Richard,

[Lechmere]

Some claim that it is unlikely that Toppy would have moved from the Booth poverty map blue of the Victoria Home to the light pink of Warren Street.
But what of his other known (so far) addresses:
Barbel Street SE
Tower Street SE
Tuscan Street E2
Violin or not they are all shades of blue.

Ah - Bletchingley actually.
So wouldn't it have been the London version of the Radio Times?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lechmere,
A small word indeed, that is where I currently live, and as for the TV ditto.
Richard.

[Lechmere]

My family live near Redhill and they get BBC London TV.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lechmere.
Two years ago [ approx] I accompanied by my wife, and eldest daughter, got a two hour time slot to search through The Radio times editions from 1971-may 1975.
To my annoyance,[ not realised till later], we only looked through the front pages up to the start of the programme lists, but left the rear pages which features information on several airings.
I lived in Reigate then therefore SE Edition, and I would take a educated guess that editions from 1973-75 should be searched , but rear pages [ left hand side] only.
I wish to god, someone would at least prove this programme did exist, it has been a major frustration to me over the years..
Regards Richard.

[Lechmere]

In popped into Colindale today to join, never having been there before, and to get the measure of the place.
They seem to have regional issues of the Radio Times from the early 1970s there on microfilm.
If someone can confirm the rough date and region I will have a proper look soon.
Or has it been confirmed before that it can't be found on any copies they hold?
And if so would it be on a copy only held by Brighton University? If so I can go there as my own primary area of research has a Sussex connection that I am going to 'check out' soon.

Also if someone can point me in the direction of Melvyn Fairclough I will contact him.

[Rubyretro]

I believe it was you who privately E mailed me , offering your sister who was ''into research'' to gain access to the relevant Radio Times editions.
I assume that this never came to pass.

That is true, Richard, but my sister says that she is going to do all sorts of things that she never gets around to doing after the initial enthusiasm wears off ! She was taken up with job hunting at the time, and I guess that now she's found a job, she's too busy.

However, when I'm next in England -since I'll be staying near Brighton- I'll try and sort through those Radio Times myself. That is because I'd love to prove you right. I'm not certain that you'd believe me, if I didn't find anything though !

Mike suggested that someone contacted Melvyn Fairclough, who is apparently still alive and living in Surrey, and his publishers are :
'Gerald Duckworth and Co ltd.' they have a web site and you can send an e-mail asking for Mr Fairclough's contact details. I haven't done so, and I feel that it should be someone entirely neutral that prepares a list of questions to put to Mr Fairclough.

[Rubyretro]

Richard -that radio programme might exist, or you might be honestly mistaken.

If you were, I'm not suggesting that you made it up, nor that you are suffering from a mental illness !

Creating false memories is something very common, and we all do it to a certain degree. Did you look at the links that I put up about it ?

One of the links was about a study featuring Bugs Bunny at Disney Land

(Bugs is a Warner Brothers character, and is not represented at Disney Land).

In the new research, Pickrell and Loftus divided 120 subjects into four groups. The subjects were told they were going to evaluate advertising copy, fill out several questionnaires and answer questions about a trip to Disneyland.

* The first group read a generic Disneyland ad that mentioned no cartoon characters.

* The second group read the same copy and was exposed to a 4-foot-tall cardboard figure of Bugs Bunny that was casually placed in the interview room. No mention was made of Bugs Bunny.

* The third, or Bugs group, read the fake Disneyland ad featuring Bugs Bunny.

* The fourth, or double exposure group, read the fake ad and also saw the cardboard rabbit.

This time, 30 percent of the people in the Bugs group later said they remembered or knew they had met Bugs Bunny when they visited Disneyland and 40 percent of the people in the double exposure group reported the same thing.

"'Remember' means the people actually recall meeting and shaking hands with Bugs,"

30% is a huge amount, and nobody would suggest that all those people were dishonest or mad !

This is the famous 'Lost in the Mall' experiment about memory :
a 14 year old boy named Chris was supplied with descriptions of three true events that supposedly happened in Chris's childhood involving Chris's mother and older brother Jim. Jim also helped construct one false event. Chris was instructed to write about all four events every day for five days, offering any facts or descriptions he could remember about each event. If he could not recall any additional details he was instructed to write "I don't remember".
The false memory was introduced in a short paragraph. It reminded Chris that he was five at the time, that Chris was lost at the University City shopping mall in Spokane, Washington where the family often went shopping. That Chris was crying heavily when he was rescued by an elderly man and reunited with his family.

Over the first five days, Chris remembered more and more about getting lost. He remembered that the man who rescued him was "really cool." He remembered being scared that he would never see his family again. He remembered his mother scolding him.

A few weeks later Chris was reinterviewed. He rated his memories on a scale from l (not clear at all) to ll (very, very clear). For the three true memories, Chris gave ratings of 1, 10, and 5. For the false shopping mall memory, he assigned his second-highest rating: 8. When asked to describe his getting lost memory, Chris provided rich details about the toy store where he got lost and his thoughts at the time ("Uh-oh. I'm in trouble now.") He remembered the man who rescued him as wearing a blue flannel shirt, kind of old, kind of bald on top.... "and, he had glasses."

Chris was soon told that one of the memories was false. Could he guess? He selected one of the real memories. When told that the memory of being lost was the false one, he had trouble believing it.

I should think that if all the people on Casebook were put into similar experiments, then a good many of us would create false memories too-
infact, we probably already have done without knowing it.

To go back to Reg Hutchinson -if Fairclough told him that it was a 'fact' that
his father had been Hutch the witness, and then gave him the details by asking leading questions that provided the information, then Reg could very well have started 'remembering' Toppy talking to him about it.

It doesn't make anyone dishonest nor 'mentally ill'. It is a real possibility.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Stephen,
Thanks for that, I am not the kind of person that makes up tales, to have my posts discussed on Casebook , I am a genuine long standing ,consistent member of this site, and have had a fascination with this case since the age of 12.
Just because no other member heard a radio broadcast some 37 years ago, does not label myself as 'mistaken, or perhaps suffering from mental illness.
Regards Richard.