Originally posted by Wickerman
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Any updates, or opinions on this witness.
Collapse
X
-
-
It's beginning to look like the Smyth-Holm, or Holm-Smyth Summit is never going to happen. Too bad. I could supply the quality ale.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Wickerman View PostIn this case, because we have no alternate professional opinion on this subject (that I know of), does not mean Sue Iremonger must be correct.Last edited by Sam Flynn; 09-03-2018, 02:36 PM.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Ben View PostI don’t recall ever debating handwriting analysis with you, Jon, and to be honest I’m more than a little dismayed that I’m doing so now.
Agreed, I don't recall the two of us debating handwriting either. But we have on Casebook many times when debating a number of documents.
And, I don't view the "Toppy" subject as silliness, though you are right I rarely comment on the subject.
I have no reason to dismiss Toppy as being the long sought witness, but I've said before some of the background information attributed to him by others is in my opinion nothing less than rubbish.
You’re very knowledgeable on a lot of things, Jon, but this is very obviously not your strong suit. It is Sue Iremonger’s however, and it is her informed professional opinion we must heed when contemplating the validity of Toppy as a signatory to the 1888 statement.
In this case, because we have no alternate professional opinion on this subject (that I know of), does not mean Sue Iremonger must be correct.
We still only have one side of the argument at her level of expertise.
You “trust” wrong.
I intend neither to do your research for you, nor do a wonderful author out of a book sale.
I manage to faithfully quote from any number of sources that I know you have never read, nor do I expect you to.
If you’re interested in Stephen Senise’s research and conclusions, you will have to part with the necessary dosh and obtain yourself a copy. Reading time may well have to encroach on posting time in your case, but you’ll be all the richer for it.
As he did not do that, where is the value of his claim?
But Abberline could not possibly have “investigated” anything by the time he sent his report on Hutchinson that evening.
Are you saying that Abberline "couldn't possibly" have had his men speak to any beat constables on the Commercial St. / Dorset St. beat for a hint of confirmation?
Or, "couldn't possibly" have sent his men to Sarah Lewis's address to bring her to Commercial St., or at the very least speak to her intently on the subject of the loiterer she saw, and the couple she saw walk up the court?
Or, "couldn't possibly" have sent a man to Millers Court to speak with Bowyer (as we read in the press), or bring him to the station?
Abberline was not a one-man operation, he had men at his disposal, and 4-5 hours with which to do something before he wrote his report.
A detective dept. can make a number of inquiries in the 4-5 hours available to them on Monday evening.
All this could have happened during the interrogation of Hutchinson, the total result of which gave Abberline the opinion the witness was being truthful.
Leave a comment:
-
I have been searching for Hutchinson's signature for a long time and I always look for an open topped capital G (as that was consistent in all three signatures) and a looped h in the middle of Hutchinson.
I have never found one yet like that in all marriages & Banns and 1911 census. It seems that the schools or teachers taught that the Capital G was closed looped.
Pat..........
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Ben View PostAccording to who or what? You? I’m sorry, but that just isn’t good enough. Sue Iremonger is the professional expert in this particular equation, and her opinion doesn’t get trounced or superseded by your own conviction to the contrary purely because you invest in it so heavily.
There are similarities between statement #1 and the other two, certainly, but that’s because the first signature was scrawled in “conscious imitation” of the other two, according to Iremonger. Badham probably opted for the flowery “H” after realising he had neglected to obtain Hutchinson’s signature on the first page. He may have been concerned that questions would be asked by his superiors if the signature resembled his own handwriting too closely, and “embroidered” the “H” in an effort to solve the problem.
It certainly makes more sense than Hutchinson deciding on a flowery “H” for his first signature, then abandoning the idea for no good reason with the other two. If he was nervous with his first effort, I see no reason why those nerves should have evaporated seconds later for parts two and three.
All the best,
BenLast edited by Sam Flynn; 09-03-2018, 02:03 AM.
Leave a comment:
-
You might appreciate this is not the first time we have debated handwriting analysis on Casebook. I have provided links & quotes from analysts in the past.
No, I don’t recall you providing any “links” or “quotes”, and you’ve evinced neither knowledge nor interest in handwriting analysis until just now. Your original statement - that “graphologists” (sic) are all in agreement that differences in handwriting style are trivial, whereas similarities are more important - is still sorely lacking in terms of evidential support.
You’re very knowledgeable on a lot of things, Jon, but this is very obviously not your strong suit. It is Sue Iremonger’s however, and it is her informed professional opinion we must heed when contemplating the validity of Toppy as a signatory to the 1888 statement.
I trust you will quote Mr Senise faithfully, so to that end it is not necessary to read the whole book.
I intend neither to do your research for you, nor do a wonderful author out of a book sale. If you’re interested in Stephen Senise’s research and conclusions, you will have to part with the necessary dosh and obtain yourself a copy. Reading time may well have to encroach on posting time in your case, but you’ll be all the richer for it.
It's the nature of police work that the statement of the witness is taken on faith unless they have reason to investigate it
The opinion of an experienced interrogation officer is more reliable than the opinion of a modern-day theorist, who has no experience with investigating a witness.
All the best,
BenLast edited by Ben; 09-03-2018, 01:33 AM.
Leave a comment:
-
Bad news - she was wrong about that, too.
There are similarities between statement #1 and the other two, certainly, but that’s because the first signature was scrawled in “conscious imitation” of the other two, according to Iremonger. Badham probably opted for the flowery “H” after realising he had neglected to obtain Hutchinson’s signature on the first page. He may have been concerned that questions would be asked by his superiors if the signature resembled his own handwriting too closely, and “embroidered” the “H” in an effort to solve the problem.
It certainly makes more sense than Hutchinson deciding on a flowery “H” for his first signature, then abandoning the idea for no good reason with the other two. If he was nervous with his first effort, I see no reason why those nerves should have evaporated seconds later for parts two and three.
All the best,
BenLast edited by Ben; 09-03-2018, 01:26 AM.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Ben View PostHi Jon,
That’s true, but I haven’t seen any document examiner go on record and state that similarities are more important than differences.
They acknowledge that there are too many outside influences that contribute to differences in any two signatures or handwriting styles; physical injuries, type of pen, pen pressure, stress, nerves, writing surface, etc.
Even the same person can produce an occasional variation in parts of their writing due to outside influences.
That said, where similarities occur, and I mean notable duplication in the direction/slant of letters, loops, connections with other letters, height, and so on, it is strong evidence that the same hand is at work.
One or two similarities may be debatable, but the more we see (5, 7, 10?) the more likely the same source was responsible.
I suggest (again) that you reserve judgement on Senise’s book until you’ve actually read it. That way you would know, for instance, that the proposed identification was not “the whole point of the book”.
The charge that Senise failed to make a required connection between the witness & the seaman remains true & valid.
Unless you care to quote where he did, but I doubt you will be able to.
If there was anything specific that convinced Abberline of Hutchinson’s truthfulness, he would certainly have mentioned it in his report.
Think back to all the witness statements taken by police, and their stories given at the inquest.
How many of these stories were investigated and proven true before they appeared at the inquest?
None!
It's the nature of police work that the statement of the witness is taken on faith unless they have reason to investigate it. This is normal so at this stage "proof" does not come into it.
What Abberline says is that he believed Hutchinson after the interrogation.
So, there is no point in debating what influenced him when the source is not available for us to judge.
The opinion of an experienced interrogation officer is more reliable than the opinion of a modern-day theorist, who has no experience with investigating a witness.
There is far more to a witness interrogation than simply asking, "are you being truthful George?"
Reducing an interrogation to a simple question & answer exercise is what modern theorists do to try weaken the officers opinion.
If it were that simple anyone could do it.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostThe "H" can be explained by Hutchinson self-consciously beginining to print his surname, then changing his mind before continuing to sign "utchinson" in his usual manner.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Ben View PostIt appears that while Iremonger was “definite” about the first statement signature being Badham’s
I see no reason at all to believe that Badham signed for Hutch on the first page, as - "H" apart - the bulk of the p1 signature matches closely those on subsequent pages. The "H" can be explained by Hutchinson self-consciously beginining to print his surname, then changing his mind before continuing to sign "utchinson" in his usual manner.
Leave a comment:
-
Hi Jon,
The argument remains the same Ben, the similarities are the clue.
Jmenges posted that she was not prepared to state it as more than just her opinion
I suggest (again) that you reserve judgement on Senise’s book until you’ve actually read it. That way you would know, for instance, that the proposed identification was not “the whole point of the book”.
If there was anything specific that convinced Abberline of Hutchinson’s truthfulness, he would certainly have mentioned it in his report.
In the absence of any verification for Hutchinson’s various claims, Abberline can only have believed him on faith alone.
All the best,
Ben
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Varqm View PostNonsense.It's clear he did not even know if the woman/Kelly the witness/stranger was talking about was the same as the victim/Kelly at the time he wrote the letter, promising to check it the next day - if Abberline did not know this how confident can he be?
I never said anything about proof.
...He has yet to do a) b) c) in post #1533.The basis for his " I am of opinion his statement is true" was flimsy but it had more to do with taking action immediately,since this witness was talking straight and was able to identify the possible "suspect" as opposed to Long and Lawende,both could not,and even Schwartz.His sighting was 15 minutes, 2:00 -2:15 AM, compared to 10-30 sec from the previous witnesses.He was going to be the most significant witness.
It is sort of implied though that the 1888 Met police did not have a "handbook",automatic procedures to do a) b) c).
There isn't any point in arguing what convinced Abberline when we have no record of the interrogation, which is the source of his opinion.
That is just a basic fact.
You seem to be saying - how could he be so sure?, because a), b), c) had not been satisfied.
He didn't say he was "sure", he said it was his "opinion" based on what transpired at the interrogation.
Leave a comment:
Leave a comment: