The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[DJA]

For half a hour while travelling from a police station to meet with a person who is going to murder you?

No,I wasn't aware.

[Elamarna]

I've stood on one side of the street watching it rain on the other side, I expect most people are aware of that.

yes i have to back you up on that, i have had it happen to me a few times, it always will.
however with out in depth reports we cannot know if it was like that that night, while it cannot be ruled out the probability must be somewhat less than 50%

[Pierre]

Pierre - This the 2nd time (the first being an inference regarding the Kelly murder) that you have suggested the murderer used empty buildings in the perpetration of the murders. Is that one of the foundations of your theory?

Hi,

no. It definitely isn´t.

Regards, Pierre

[Garry Wroe]

More likely than an accomplice, in my view, is knowledge that Watkin used Kearley & Tonge as a tea-spot (probably spending the duration of one circuit of his beat, but no longer, with Morris).

I came across a newspaper piece some years ago, Colin, in which Morris stated that Watkins had handed him a cup (or flask) some fifteen minutes before the discovery of Kate's body with the instruction that it should be filled with hot water before Watkins next returned to Mitre Square. This would appear to confirm that Morris, like many nightwatchmen, provided a tea service for the local beat policemen. Read Morris and Watkins' later versions of events, however, and this incident is omitted altogether. In fact it is completely at odds with each man's assertion that he neither saw nor heard anyone else in Mitre Square during the thirty minutes preceding the murder. That said, I'm disinclined to believe that Watkins abandoned his beat. I've long believed that it was Harvey rather than Watkins who sheltered from the rain, and that he was otherwise occupied when supposedly checking the square at about the time of the murder.

[Mayerling]

Did anyone ever check out Harvey's family background? The name of "Harvey" would play a role within a few years in another murder case.

Jeff

[Elamarna]

Did anyone ever check out Harvey's family background? The name of "Harvey" would play a role within a few years in another murder case.

Jeff

jeff,

forgive my ignorance, which case is that.

there was some checking done, can't remember where i read it am afraid.

Steve

[Pierre]

Pierre I'm curious why, after chastising most of the members of this forum over their facts, you so readily accept what Monty says in this regard. Are you now willing to concede that members of this forum actually have usueful contributions to this case?

Hi,

but Monty was not saying anything about the killer. He just gave some information about Mitre Square. And I never thought that the killer used some buildings, I was just asking. I prefer asking questions before knowing a lot of "facts". At least before I establish any facts.

Regards, Pierre

[John G]

Hi,

but Monty was not saying anything about the killer. He just gave some information about Mitre Square. And I never thought that the killer used some buildings, I was just asking. I prefer asking questions before knowing a lot of "facts". At least before I establish any facts.

Regards, Pierre

Pierre,

Did your police officer suspect wear his uniform during attacks?

[el_pombo]

Hi el_pombo,

however silly as it may sound, it is generally accepted that City Police officers did not have whistles in 1888.

Steve

Has anyone seen this auction?

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/j-p-humbert-auctioneers-ltd/catalogue-id-srjp10024/lot-66bdb218-d073-4dd2-8e42-a3ff00c0a51b

This can't be genuine, at least from what I've read it was Morris who blew a whistle!

They even claim "He blew it to signal his gruesome discovery to other Police Officers. ".

They had other items available claimed to have belonged to Watkins!

[Pcdunn]

Hi, el pombo-- yes, the Watkins items were purchased for the so-called "Jack the Ripper Museum" which opened last year, to a considerable amount of controversy. There are threads about it here, as well as an article in The Ripperologist journal.

(I think the "Vendor's grandfather" got told a story re the items, but maybe the Watkins family believed it.)

[el_pombo]

Hi, el pombo-- yes, the Watkins items were purchased for the so-called "Jack the Ripper Museum" which opened last year, to a considerable amount of controversy. There are threads about it here, as well as an article in The Ripperologist journal.

(I think the "Vendor's grandfather" got told a story re the items, but maybe the Watkins family believed it.)

Hi, Pcdunn!

Sorry, I should have searched the forums before posting! I'll make sure I'll read the articles! Thanks!

All the best!

[Craig H]

I’ve done some research (using Ancestry) into who Pierre’s suspect is and think I have a short list.

He gave a number of clues : police official, born before 1858, lived in several high status homes, had a nickname of “Jack”, had anatomical knowledge but not a doctor, was not a local to Whitechapel area, intelligent, well-educated, knew Thomas Bowyer, was not a Police Constable, can’t find a photo of him and wanted to humiliate police.

The lived in high status homes provides only a short list. I excluded those who were too old (such as Monsell)

Chief Inspector John George Littlechild (8 The Chase, Clapham) – born 1847, wife and 3 children, Head Special Irish Branch, sick from late 1887 (nervous breakdown), wealthy (9,700 pound probate when died in 1923), wrote memoirs

Colonel William Arthur Roberts (19 Bullingham Mansions Pitt St, Kensington) – born 1841, military family, served for Royal Horse artillery (including in India), wife & 2 children, moved to Police as Chief Constable, resigned after declared bankrupt in 1895, only had 80 pound probate when died in 1906, widow wife continued to live in same home and died 1921with 699 pound in probate.

Alexander Carmichael Bruce (82 Lexham Gardens, Kensington) - Assistant Commissioner of Metro Police – born 1850, Oxford Uni Law degree, was a barrister, wife & child

Colonel Bolton James Alfred Monsell (25 Gordon Sq, St Pancras ) Chief Constable - Born 1840, father a Vicar, responsible for East End London, wife, children & servants.

Captain Arthur Cyprian Knollys (67 St Georges Rd, Pimlico) - Born 1851, wealthy influential family who served royal family at senior level, adjutant in Scots Fusillier Guards, served in Egypt.

Where I struggle is why would a Police Official want to humiliate and embarrass their own force.

Only Bruce was well-educated (Oxford Uni Law degree) but was in a high position in the Force.

Roberts and Knollys were ex-Army Leaders so it’s possible they could have been critical of the Police force.

The difficulty with Roberts and Knollys is there is very little newspaper articles mentioning them, so not sure where Pierre could have found his data sources.

The only one mentioned in newspaper archives is John George Littlechild. While in the Irish Branch, he would have been familiar with police activities in Whitechapel. Like many men called John, he may also have been called “Jack”.

Littlechild also said he had a nervous breakdown and was sick from late 1887. He was not working in second half of 1888, only returning in December.

Does anyone know anything about his illness ? Also, I thought I read somewhere that he was arrested over that 18 month period – any detail on this ?

Also, does anyone know anything about William Arthur Roberts ? I can’t find much on Britishnewspaper archive.

Craig

[Abby Normal]

I’ve done some research (using Ancestry) into who Pierre’s suspect is and think I have a short list.

He gave a number of clues : police official, born before 1858, lived in several high status homes, had a nickname of “Jack”, had anatomical knowledge but not a doctor, was not a local to Whitechapel area, intelligent, well-educated, knew Thomas Bowyer, was not a Police Constable, can’t find a photo of him and wanted to humiliate police.

The lived in high status homes provides only a short list. I excluded those who were too old (such as Monsell)

Chief Inspector John George Littlechild (8 The Chase, Clapham) – born 1847, wife and 3 children, Head Special Irish Branch, sick from late 1887 (nervous breakdown), wealthy (9,700 pound probate when died in 1923), wrote memoirs

Colonel William Arthur Roberts (19 Bullingham Mansions Pitt St, Kensington) – born 1841, military family, served for Royal Horse artillery (including in India), wife & 2 children, moved to Police as Chief Constable, resigned after declared bankrupt in 1895, only had 80 pound probate when died in 1906, widow wife continued to live in same home and died 1921with 699 pound in probate.

Alexander Carmichael Bruce (82 Lexham Gardens, Kensington) - Assistant Commissioner of Metro Police – born 1850, Oxford Uni Law degree, was a barrister, wife & child

Colonel Bolton James Alfred Monsell (25 Gordon Sq, St Pancras ) Chief Constable - Born 1840, father a Vicar, responsible for East End London, wife, children & servants.

Captain Arthur Cyprian Knollys (67 St Georges Rd, Pimlico) - Born 1851, wealthy influential family who served royal family at senior level, adjutant in Scots Fusillier Guards, served in Egypt.

Where I struggle is why would a Police Official want to humiliate and embarrass their own force.

Only Bruce was well-educated (Oxford Uni Law degree) but was in a high position in the Force.

Roberts and Knollys were ex-Army Leaders so it’s possible they could have been critical of the Police force.

The difficulty with Roberts and Knollys is there is very little newspaper articles mentioning them, so not sure where Pierre could have found his data sources.

The only one mentioned in newspaper archives is John George Littlechild. While in the Irish Branch, he would have been familiar with police activities in Whitechapel. Like many men called John, he may also have been called “Jack”.

Littlechild also said he had a nervous breakdown and was sick from late 1887. He was not working in second half of 1888, only returning in December.

Does anyone know anything about his illness ? Also, I thought I read somewhere that he was arrested over that 18 month period – any detail on this ?

Also, does anyone know anything about William Arthur Roberts ? I can’t find much on Britishnewspaper archive.

Craig

hi Craig
Good work. It seems to me that out of that list. Littlechild is the best bet.
But didn't he name Tumblty as a suspect?

I still think Piere's suspect was Monro. He just wouldn't admit it.

[Craig H]

Hi Abby

Thanks for reply.

I agree Monro had the strongest motivation - to embarrass Warren (which is what happened) leading to Warren resigning.

The concern with Monro is he was born in 1838 so was 50 y.o. when killings occurred. Too old ? Also, inconsistent with possible Ripper witnesses who described a man much younger.

I had previously thought that it was Macnaghten, who was close friends with Monro and had an even stronger motivation. He transferred his family from India to London based upon the job offer from Monro which Warren over-ruled. Would have been incredibly embarrassing.

However Pierre said his suspect was not Macnaghten

Craig

[el_pombo]

Hi Abby

Thanks for reply.

I agree Monro had the strongest motivation - to embarrass Warren (which is what happened) leading to Warren resigning.

The concern with Monro is he was born in 1838 so was 50 y.o. when killings occurred. Too old ? Also, inconsistent with possible Ripper witnesses who described a man much younger.

I had previously thought that it was Macnaghten, who was close friends with Monro and had an even stronger motivation. He transferred his family from India to London based upon the job offer from Monro which Warren over-ruled. Would have been incredibly embarrassing.

However Pierre said his suspect was not Macnaghten

Craig

Hi, all!

But is it likely this type of murder, involving mutilations, could have been politically motivated?

Maybe I'm being narrow minded with this, but I find it highly unlikely that these murders could have been committed by someone who wasn't suffering from a severe mental disorder!

Maybe it could have been the result of a mental disorder along with a strong political motivation, are there other examples in history of this type of behavior?

All the best!