The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[John G]

Hi Rosella,

It's not just the fact that he found the body. With the nature of her neck wounds, she would have bled out very rapidly. All the major vessels in the left side of her neck were severed by two cuts. By the time Isaac Jacobs got to the body he stated, depending on which report you read, that blood was spurting (running very fast or gushing in other reports) from her throat. He left his house roughly at the same time PC Andrews found the body and was heading to McCarthy's to pick up supper. From my calculations that would have been several minutes by the time he left his house, was questioned at the top of the street by Andrews and then ran down to the body with Andrews. If she were killed just before 12:45, like most believe, that would have been about 13 minutes (roughly) of bleeding time. She should have bled out before Jacobs got to her if that were the case. With blood spurting it indicated that the heart was still beating when Jacobs saw her. What does that tell us about Andrews then if he saw her a few minutes before Jacobs?

Add to that, at 12:48, Andrews was standing 60 yards or so from the gas lamp that Alice was killed under talking to Sgt Badham. And further, Andrews made a statement at the inquest that doesn't conform to the testimony of PC Allen or Detective Inspector Reid. He was in the alley at a time he says he was not. To me, that is misleading. Why would he have to mislead the jury at an inquest?

As far as why he would kill, your guess is as good as mine. His mother died in the 4th quarter of 1887. December, IIRC. He was an illegitimate child, which I know is a weak argument but who knows, maybe he felt his mother was a whore? He grew up on a farm so he may have had experience butchering sheep and pigs. Isaac Jacobs stated that her throat was pierced much the same as the throats of sheep are pierced by butchers. She may have angered him and he had a short fuse. Like I said, your guess is as good as mine, at this point.

Hi Jerry,

I think you've made some excellent points about PC Andrews, and it certainly seems odd that he apparently didn't blow his whistle to summon assistance immediately, i.e. upon discovery of the body. In fact, I believe police regulations required him to stay with the body, so he wouldn't have been able to commence an immediate search for a killer himself, even though he had possibly just fled the scene,which is all the more reason for him to summon help quickly.

Regarding arterial bleeding, Dr Biggs points out that, "arteries, even large ones, usually go into acute spasm when cut, providing very effective control of bleeding (at least initially.)" (Marriott, 2013).

[Whitechapel]

It could be because he wasn't a whistle blower. I think rather than Sir Charles WARREN, there is another WARREN that killed. It was the WARREN of streets around Whitechapel with their blind alleys, yards and cut throughs. This was made worse by the dimly lit streets, where any person up to no good could hide in the shadows. JTR felt so secure in the dark that he indulged himself with Mary Jane Kelly. It was the perfect landscape for these murders, a bit like the boccage in Normandy in 1944 and the warren of passage ways in the 1960s built sink estates for drugs gangs.

The only other light was moonlight until sunrise
31 August Nicholls 29.8-6.9 half moon to full moon
8 September Chapman 6.9-12.9 full moon to half moon
30 September Stride & Eddowes 28.9-5.10 half moon to full moon
9 November Kelly 4.10-10-10 full moon to half moon

Added to that was the echo on the streets from heavy boots or steel shod shoes that gave warning of the approach of police or passers-by.

[Elamarna]

If Andrews wasn't JTR what motive would he have had for stabbing and killing a poverty-stricken prostitute? She wasn't young and attractive so he was hardly likely to have had a relationship with her. Andrews wasn't corrupt as far as is known, was he, with Alice threatening to tell his superiors?

I just feel that it's often too easy to stray into Cross/Lechmere territory with such scenarios, in which any person (whether a policeman or not) who finds a dead or dying body is automatically in the firing line as a murderer.

yes Rosella i agree that is often a temptation, I am more interested in the possibility, however remote, that he may have passed the killer after the murder.

[John G]

It could be because he wasn't a whistle blower. I think rather than Sir Charles WARREN, there is another WARREN that killed. It was the WARREN of streets around Whitechapel with their blind alleys, yards and cut throughs. This was made worse by the dimly lit streets, where any person up to no good could hide in the shadows. JTR felt so secure in the dark that he indulged himself with Mary Jane Kelly. It was the perfect landscape for these murders, a bit like the boccage in Normandy in 1944 and the warren of passage ways in the 1960s built sink estates for drugs gangs.

The only other light was moonlight until sunrise
31 August Nicholls 29.8-6.9 half moon to full moon
8 September Chapman 6.9-12.9 full moon to half moon
30 September Stride & Eddowes 28.9-5.10 half moon to full moon
9 November Kelly 4.10-10-10 full moon to half moon

Added to that was the echo on the streets from heavy boots or steel shod shoes that gave warning of the approach of police or passers-by.

Hello Whitechapel,

Yes, this is an important point. Inspector Moore showed a visiting American police officer Castle Allley, to demonstrate what a labyrinth it was. In fact, he stated how easily police lines were broken, "To give you an idea of it, my men formed a circle around the spot where one of the murders took place, guarding they thought, every entrance and approach, and within a few minutes they found fifty people inside the lines. They had come in through two passageways which my men could not find." See: http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

Regarding PC Andrews' failure to immediately blow his whistle, I wonder if he was simply following instructions. For instance, when PC Pennett discovered the Pinchin Street Torso he also didn't blow his whistle, for fear of creating a scene and causing a crowd to assemble. However, in the Pinchin Torso case it must have been obvious that the perpetrator was long gone, whereas with Mackenzie he must have only recently fled the scene, so therefore it could be reasoned that there was a realistic chance of apprehending him.

[curious]

Well, let me answer that this way John, as far as the Alice McKenzie murder is concerned, Thick (or any other person) would only work as a suspect if Andrews knew about it, imho. But I will state again, this all hinges on the truthfulness of Isaac Jacobs and his statements.

If you want to read my theory, it was discussed at length with Christer and Jon Simmons here. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=24484

Hi, Jerry,
Interesting posts. I know very little about the McKenzie murder.

However, I'll offer this. After reading through the posts and Jacobs testimony, I arrived at the conclusion that Andrews thought he had a chance of catching the murderer -- and perhaps of becoming a hero.

From experience, Andrews likely knew after only a brief glance at the spurting blood that Alice could not be saved, but he heard footsteps and rushed toward them.

Of course, he was supposed to stay with the victim. But after so many deaths isn't it easy to believe he might have decided to go after the murderer -- perhaps without even thinking about it, just rushed toward the footsteps?

That's the way I read it. He came upon a body gushing blood. He could not help the victim, but he heard footsteps in the distance . . .

Since I don't know Castle Alley, I can't say that the killer was hiding in the shadows and slipped out and away while Andrews chased Jacobs. Or perhaps he waited around then slipped into the crowd that eventually gathered . . .

[John G]

From the reference I've cited Inspector Moore gave further insights into the Castle Alley locality, "Inspector Moore led the journalist through the network of narrow passageways as dark and loathsome as the great network of sewers that stretches underneath them a few feet below. ' The chief of police from Austin, Texas, came to see me', said the inspector, ' and offered me a great deal of advice. But when I showed him this place (Castle Alley) and the courts around it he took off his hat, and said, 'I apologize. I never saw anything like it before. We've nothing like it in all America. ' He said that at home an officer could stand on a street corner and look down four different streets and see all that went off in them for a quarter of a mile off. Now, you know, I might put two regiments of police on this half-mile district and half of them would be as completely out of sight and hearing of the others as though they were in separate cells of a prison."

He further observed, "And then, you know people never lock their doors, and the murderer had only to lift the latch of the nearest house and walk through it and out the back way."

[Abby Normal]

Hi Jerry,

What do you think of sergeant William Thick as a suspect? I would say that of all the police officer suspects he seems the most viable.

hi JohnG
Why Thick?

[Monty]

"Regarding PC Andrews' failure to immediately blow his whistle, I wonder if he was simply following instructions. For instance, when PC Pennett discovered the Pinchin Street Torso he also didn't blow his whistle, for fear of creating a scene and causing a crowd to assemble. However, in the Pinchin Torso case it must have been obvious that the perpetrator was long gone, whereas with Mackenzie he must have only recently fled the scene, so therefore it could be reasoned that there was a realistic chance of apprehending him."

Sir Howard Vincents Police Code 1889 covers this, as does Capturing Jack the Ripper by Neil R A Bell...now available in paperback.

Monty

[jerryd]

"Regarding PC Andrews' failure to immediately blow his whistle, I wonder if he was simply following instructions. For instance, when PC Pennett discovered the Pinchin Street Torso he also didn't blow his whistle, for fear of creating a scene and causing a crowd to assemble. However, in the Pinchin Torso case it must have been obvious that the perpetrator was long gone, whereas with Mackenzie he must have only recently fled the scene, so therefore it could be reasoned that there was a realistic chance of apprehending him."

Sir Howard Vincents Police Code 1889 covers this, as does Capturing Jack the Ripper by Neil R A Bell...now available in paperback.

Monty

Thanks Monty,

Didn't the whistle procedure, possibly by directive of the Met, change for the City Police on on July 25th, 1889? Immediately after the murder of Alice McKenzie? At that directive, the officer finding the body was to, upon finding a body, blow a whistle immediately until help arrived.

[RockySullivan]

"Regarding PC Andrews' failure to immediately blow his whistle, I wonder if he was simply following instructions. For instance, when PC Pennett discovered the Pinchin Street Torso he also didn't blow his whistle, for fear of creating a scene and causing a crowd to assemble. However, in the Pinchin Torso case it must have been obvious that the perpetrator was long gone, whereas with Mackenzie he must have only recently fled the scene, so therefore it could be reasoned that there was a realistic chance of apprehending him."

Sir Howard Vincents Police Code 1889 covers this, as does Capturing Jack the Ripper by Neil R A Bell...now available in paperback.

Monty

In Forgotten victims, the authors suggest that the police officer who discovered the torso but was knocking up near by when the torso was likely dumped, may have been purposefully lured away to allow a window for torso disposal. apparently this was a rumor at the time. Pretty interesting, I'll have to go back and look who the officer was knocking up at the time but it may be an interesting avenue of exploration

[John G]

hi JohnG
Why Thick?

Hi Abby,

Well, he was certainly a bit dodgy. Thus, he was suspected of taking money and framing suspects. And Tom Westcott, in the Bank Holiday Murders, considered the possibility that he may have attempted to frame John Pizer, whom he arrested. In fact, he stated unequivocally that he was known as "Leather Apron", even though no-one else seemed to be aware of this.

It's also been suggested that his "Johnny Upright", nickname was meant ironically. In fact, Detective Sergeant Leeson, who served under Thick, may have been on the verge of exposing him. In his memoirs he wrote, "By this time I had learned the nicknames of the detectives, the senior was 'Tommy Upright' (sic), and the two others, 'Masher' and 'Chinaman'. How they came about these names will be a matter for another chapter." However, the chapter was omitted.

He also lived a stone's throw from Berner Street. And, following Chapman's murder, he examined the body in the mortuary, and took an active part in checking the common lodging houses in the vicinity. And when Kelly was murdered, he was at the scene of crime within an hour of the body being discovered.

He was also the only policeman at the time to be accused of being the Ripper. Thus, on September 10th 1889, exactly one year after Thick's arrest of Pizer, the Pinchin Street Torso was discovered, close to where Thick lived. That day a Mr HT Hazelwood, of Tottenham, sent a letter to the Home Office, stating, "I have very good grounds to believe that the person who has committed the Whitechapel Murders is a member of the police force." A month later he sent a second letter, naming Thick as the Ripper and suggesting that he caught syphilis from prostitutes.

[John G]

"Regarding PC Andrews' failure to immediately blow his whistle, I wonder if he was simply following instructions. For instance, when PC Pennett discovered the Pinchin Street Torso he also didn't blow his whistle, for fear of creating a scene and causing a crowd to assemble. However, in the Pinchin Torso case it must have been obvious that the perpetrator was long gone, whereas with Mackenzie he must have only recently fled the scene, so therefore it could be reasoned that there was a realistic chance of apprehending him."

Sir Howard Vincents Police Code 1889 covers this, as does Capturing Jack the Ripper by Neil R A Bell...now available in paperback.

Monty

Thanks Monty!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Well, he was certainly a bit dodgy. Thus, he was suspected of taking money and framing suspects. In fact, Tom Westcott, in the Bank Holiday murders, considered the possibility that he may have attempted to frame John Pizer, whom he arrested. In fact, he stated unequivocally that he was known as "Leather Apron", even though no-one else seemed to be aware of this.

It's also been suggested that his "Johnny Upright", nickname was meant ironically. In fact, Detective sergeant Leeson, who served under Thick, may have been on the verge of exposing him. In his memoirs he wrote, "By this time I had learned the nicknames of the detectives, the senior was 'Tommy Upright' (sic), and the two others, 'Masher' and 'Chinaman'. How they came about these names will be a matter for another chapter." However, the chapter was omitted.

He also lived a stone's throw from Berner Street. And, following Chapman's murder, he examined the body in the mortuary, and took an active part in checking the common lodging houses in the vicinity. And when Kelly was murdered, he was at the scene of crime within an hour of the body being discovered.

He was also the only policeman at the time to be accused of being the Ripper. Thus, on September 10th 1889, exactly one year after Thick's arrest of Pizer, the Pinchin Street Torso was discovered, close to where Thick lived. That day a Mr HT Hazelwood, of Tottenham, sent a letter to the Home Office, stating, "I have very good grounds to believe that the person who has committed the Whitechapel Murders is a member of the police force." A month later he sent a second letter, naming Thick as the Ripper and suggesting that he caught syphilis from prostitutes.

thanks!

[jerryd]

In Forgotten victims, the authors suggest that the police officer who discovered the torso but was knocking up near by when the torso was likely dumped, may have been purposefully lured away to allow a window for torso disposal. apparently this was a rumor at the time. Pretty interesting, I'll have to go back and look who the officer was knocking up at the time but it may be an interesting avenue of exploration

Hi Rocky,

Is it Jeremiah Hurley on Ellen Street that you're thinking of?

[Joshua Rogan]

In Forgotten victims, the authors suggest that the police officer who discovered the torso but was knocking up near by when the torso was likely dumped, may have been purposefully lured away to allow a window for torso disposal. apparently this was a rumor at the time. Pretty interesting, I'll have to go back and look who the officer was knocking up at the time but it may be an interesting avenue of exploration

Giving the police your name and address seems like a pretty risky distraction technique,