The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[Elamarna]

No I don't suspect him.

I do, however, suspect a certain policeman having been nearer the crime scene than we have been led to believe in the McKenzie murder. Close enough to the time of the murder to either have committed the crime or knew who did. That would be PC Walter Andrews, 272H. Unfortunately, that belief relies a lot on the witness Isaac Jacobs, and his testimony. But again, as far as being the Ripper, that would be a hard one to prove even if he did kill Alice.

Jerry

any chance he could be the "phantom" police officer who got a view of the ripper?
know that most disregard those statements, but i am a great believer if a number people mention something, there could possibly be a kernel of truth in that something no matter how small or distorted.

Steve

[John G]

No I don't suspect him.

I do, however, suspect a certain policeman having been nearer the crime scene than we have been led to believe in the McKenzie murder. Close enough to the time of the murder to either have committed the crime or knew who did. That would be PC Walter Andrews, 272H. Unfortunately, that belief relies a lot on the witness Isaac Jacobs, and his testimony. But again, as far as being the Ripper, that would be a hard one to prove even if he did kill Alice.

Hi Jerry,

What do you think of sergeant William Thick as a suspect? I would say that of all the police officer suspects he seems the most viable.

[jerryd]

Hi Steve,

I've never thought about that story in relation to Andrews. I personally find it a hard story to believe.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

What do you think of sergeant William Thick as a suspect? I would say that of all the police officer suspects he seems the most viable.

Well, let me answer that this way John, as far as the Alice McKenzie murder is concerned, Thick (or any other person) would only work as a suspect if Andrews knew about it, imho. But I will state again, this all hinges on the truthfulness of Isaac Jacobs and his statements.

If you want to read my theory, it was discussed at length with Christer and Jon Simmons here. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=24484

[Monty]

I'm actually going to help Pierre here because there is no way he is going to be able to provide primary sources for anything.

The below extract is from Police Orders of 19 July 1889 and authorises five additional sergeants and fifty additional police constables for Whitechapel, referencing a letter of authorisation from the Home Secretary dated 17 July 1889.

The flaw in Pierre's thinking is to assume that this automatically meant that the authorities knew that Alice McKenzie's killer was Jack the Ripper. The fact is that another woman had been brutally murdered in Whitechapel and the public would have demanded an increased police presence in the area, regardless of whether it was confirmed to be JTR or not.

Absolutely.

There perils of selective evidence gathering.

I guess that's the academic way.

Monty

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I've never thought about that story in relation to Andrews. I personally find it a hard story to believe.

I know alot of people don't believe it, those who do not rule it out, I won't say believe it, have said it fits Castle Alley slightly better than Mitre Square.

I just wonder and have for along time, if an officer passed someone no conversation or anything, but interesting that you think Andrews was closer than he said.

Whatever the truth is, once again a killer, not necessarily the same as the previous killer/killers, was very fast and lucky, if Andrews was not involved in some capacity, either as killer or witness.


Steve

[jerryd]

I know alot of people don't believe it, those who do not rule it out, I won't say believe it, have said it fits Castle Alley slightly better than Mitre Square.

I just wonder and have for along time, if an officer passed someone no conversation or anything, but interesting that you think Andrews was closer than he said.

Whatever the truth is, once again a killer, not necessarily the same as the previous killer/killers, was very fast and lucky, if Andrews was not involved in some capacity, either as killer or witness.


Steve

Thanks Steve,

I personally don't think the killer of Alice McKenzie, or the others for that matter was that lucky, I think he was informed. Remember, Walter Andrews would have known where everyone on that beat was at any given moment. He had just spoken to Sgt. Badham before discovering the body. Badham was heading the opposite direction (north) to Bell Lane. He followed PC Allen into the alley who was also heading the other direction. He admittedly touched the body of Alice when he found her. He would have an excuse to have blood on his uniform and hands if questioned.

[Elamarna]

Thanks Steve,

I personally don't think the killer of Alice McKenzie, or the others for that matter was that lucky, I think he was informed. Remember, Walter Andrews would have known where everyone on that beat was at any given moment. He had just spoken to Sgt. Badham before discovering the body. Badham was heading the opposite direction (north) to Bell Lane. He followed PC Allen into the alley who was also heading the other direction. He admittedly touched the body of Alice when he found her. He would have an excuse to have blood on his uniform and hands if questioned.

Jerry.

Accept what you say about Andrews. Think we will have to agree to disagree about luck or not over all the murders and that is good for honest debate.
However not sure if you missed my point, which was in this murder at least, if Andrews was not involved, then the killer was unbelievable lucky.
Been very intersting looking at this again, first time in a few years for me to go back over Castle Alley.

cheers

Steve

[jerryd]

Ah, yes Steve. I agree with you. Very lucky indeed.

[Rosella]

If Andrews wasn't JTR what motive would he have had for stabbing and killing a poverty-stricken prostitute? She wasn't young and attractive so he was hardly likely to have had a relationship with her. Andrews wasn't corrupt as far as is known, was he, with Alice threatening to tell his superiors?

I just feel that it's often too easy to stray into Cross/Lechmere territory with such scenarios, in which any person (whether a policeman or not) who finds a dead or dying body is automatically in the firing line as a murderer.

[jerryd]

Hi Rosella,

It's not just the fact that he found the body. With the nature of her neck wounds, she would have bled out very rapidly. All the major vessels in the left side of her neck were severed by two cuts. By the time Isaac Jacobs got to the body he stated, depending on which report you read, that blood was spurting (running very fast or gushing in other reports) from her throat. He left his house roughly at the same time PC Andrews found the body and was heading to McCarthy's to pick up supper. From my calculations that would have been several minutes by the time he left his house, was questioned at the top of the street by Andrews and then ran down to the body with Andrews. If she were killed just before 12:45, like most believe, that would have been about 13 minutes (roughly) of bleeding time. She should have bled out before Jacobs got to her if that were the case. With blood spurting it indicated that the heart was still beating when Jacobs saw her. What does that tell us about Andrews then if he saw her a few minutes before Jacobs?

Add to that, at 12:48, Andrews was standing 60 yards or so from the gas lamp that Alice was killed under talking to Sgt Badham. And further, Andrews made a statement at the inquest that doesn't conform to the testimony of PC Allen or Detective Inspector Reid. He was in the alley at a time he says he was not. To me, that is misleading. Why would he have to mislead the jury at an inquest?

As far as why he would kill, your guess is as good as mine. His mother died in the 4th quarter of 1887. December, IIRC. He was an illegitimate child, which I know is a weak argument but who knows, maybe he felt his mother was a whore? He grew up on a farm so he may have had experience butchering sheep and pigs. Isaac Jacobs stated that her throat was pierced much the same as the throats of sheep are pierced by butchers. She may have angered him and he had a short fuse. Like I said, your guess is as good as mine, at this point.

[Rosella]

^ From my time posting on the Lizzie Borden forum I know that blood sometimes doesn't behave in textbook fashion and on occasion gushes and remains liquid for some time when in theory it's not supposed to.

There was also confusion re the Nichols murder over aspects of PC Neil's and PC Mizen's movements, as we know! Neither Neil nor Mizen were Polly's killers though. (Neither was Cross, IMO.)

Sometimes, as we know in this case and others, when people don't have timepieces on them timings can be inaccurate. It might only have taken a couple of minutes to produce Alice's injuries then hurry away on quiet rubber-soled boots.

[jerryd]

Hi Rosella and thanks for the reply,

According to one report, it was supposed by police authorities that the murder occurred within the 3 minutes that elapsed between the Sergeant leaving Andrews and hearing his whistle.

When do you place the time of your killer attacking Alice and leaving undetected?

[Rosella]

^ I don't quite know how they could have timed everything so close to the minute when most people, including constables didn't have watches.

I grant you Jerry that we have an extremely narrow window of opportunity here, much more so even than Stride, about which there have been so many arguments! However, if Andrews was the killer he too must have acted in an extremely swift and decisive fashion for a (presumably first time) killer as well.

If he found Alice in that dark alley immediately after seeing Sgt Badham off, set upon her, stabbed her neck and belly, then blew his whistle on hearing Isaac Jacob approaching or immediately after encountering Jacob, following which he spoke quite calmly to fellow police and the doctor, then I admire his nerves, that's all I can say! Where was he in August, September and November of 1888!

Couldn't a killer have done what he did to Alice in the admittedly very few minutes when Andrews was trying doors further down the alley. Then, hearing Andrews footsteps, hurried off?

I just feel the police weren't absolute idiots. Reluctant though they might be at pointing the finger at one of their own, if the razor-thin timescale just made it impossible for any punter to have done the murder and Andrews drew suspicion to himself in any way by demeanour or manner, then he would certainly have been vigorously questioned and investigated. Instead he remained in the force until 1906! And again, one would have to ask, in the absence of a mental condition, what would be his motive.

[jerryd]

^ I don't quite know how they could have timed everything so close to the minute when most people, including constables didn't have watches.


I grant you Jerry that we have an extremely narrow window of opportunity here, much more so even than Stride, about which there have been so many arguments! However, if Andrews was the killer he too must have acted in an extremely swift and decisive fashion for a (presumably first time) killer as well.

If he found Alice in that dark alley immediately after seeing Sgt Badham off, set upon her, stabbed her neck and belly, then blew his whistle on hearing Isaac Jacob approaching or immediately after encountering Jacob, following which he spoke quite calmly to fellow police and the doctor, then I admire his nerves, that's all I can say! Where was he in August, September and November of 1888!

Couldn't a killer have done what he did to Alice in the admittedly very few minutes when Andrews was trying doors further down the alley. Then, hearing Andrews footsteps, hurried off?

I just feel the police weren't absolute idiots. Reluctant though they might be at pointing the finger at one of their own, if the razor-thin timescale just made it impossible for any punter to have done the murder and Andrews drew suspicion to himself in any way by demeanour or manner, then he would certainly have been vigorously questioned and investigated. Instead he remained in the force until 1906! And again, one would have to ask, in the absence of a mental condition, what would be his motive.

Rosella,

PC Allen had a watch on that night.

On your second point, Andrews blew his whistle after questioning Isaac Jacobs. Contrary to popular belief. He made it sound like he blew it immediately after finding McKenzie and then Sgt. Badham met him at the body. The evidence says different.

The alley itself was 170 yards in length, in total. Andrews started down the alley (after meeting Sgt. Badham) from about the Three Crowns which was 60 or 70 yards from where Alice was killed. She was near a Gas Lamp when killed. You have to remember, Castle Alley was the portion of the street from Whitechapel Road north to the Three Crowns. From the Three Crowns further north was Old Castle Street. In other words the entire street from Whitechapel Road to Wentworth was not the alley. Only about half of it was and the Three Crowns split the middle of the two.

I agree with you and I don't feel the police were idiots either. I said earlier that Andrews was either the killer or he knew who was (imho).