Social class of Jack the Ripper

[Sam Flynn]

Are there any other instances of a serial killer who by fluke picked out the last two victims at random when they were both using the same uncommon name on the day they died.

They weren't using the same name, though. "Mary Ann Kelly" was the alias chosen by Eddowes, but then her partner's surname actually was Kelly, and "Mary Ann" was hardly an unusual choice of forenames, false or otherwise. No surprises there.

Mary Jane Kelly affected an Irish ancestry, so - assuming her name was completely made up - "Kelly" would have been a perfectly reasonable surname to choose. Besides, she seems to have favoured the appellation "Marie Jeannette", which is different enough from plain "Mary Jane" to begin with, and is still further removed from plain "Mary Ann".

Had MJK assumed the francophone guise of "Marianne" (or "Marie Anne") there might be some vague mileage in the "same uncommon name" argument but, as it is, there's no reason to believe that we're dealing with anything other than the very faintest of coincidences.

[Wickerman]

So Abberline was an incompetent moron then, according to you? Too stupid and lazy to bother ascertaining whether or not the witness had last seen Kelly in the company of a suspicious stranger, and unaided by Bowyer's inexplicable unwillingness to provide these rather essential details of his own volition?

One the other hand, maybe Abberline did ask Bowyer where he had been every single day, who he saw, what he heard, what he did, but Abberline just couldn't be bothered to write it all down?
No mention of seeing Kelly on Wednesday, no mention of fetching water on Thursday, No mention of seeing another man in the court on Friday morning.
Funny that...

The trouble with you, as always, is that you seek a titillating, glamorous explanation to these violent murders, rather than a realistic one, .

And your version of realism is to dismiss what the witnesses saw, and replace it with your own concoction of what you "think" they should have seen, and "think" they should have said, in order to manipulate the evidence to suit your preconceptions?

When anyone must resort to dismissing witness statements as lies and inventions, because "I don't believe it", it's time to take a more practical look at your own theory.

[Wickerman]

The vast, vast majority of people accept that the killer belonged to precisely this group,

Opinion is not evidence. Especially modern opinion which relies on interpretation by people who are a hundred plus years distant from the events.

I don't think it matters where the killer lived, there's no evidence either way so why argue about it?

[Wickerman]

Pretty basic isn't it, anyone, local or not, may have had work or family or social commitments that dictated their schedule.

Depending on who we accept as being by the same hand, we have two victims on a Friday morning, one on a Sat. morning, and two on Sunday morning.

Not much to go on regarding a work schedule.

[Rosella]

^ Interesting, though, that most of Jack's murders are on weekends and public holidays. If he was unemployed he might have lured a victim or two into deserted alleyways or yards after sunrise and before sunset.

[Sam Flynn]

^ Interesting, though, that most of Jack's murders are on weekends and public holidays.

Some things never change:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Most-murders-committed-during-weekend-drinking-time-MEC-20151008

[packers stem]

They weren't using the same name, though. "Mary Ann Kelly" was the alias chosen by Eddowes, but then her partner's surname actually was Kelly, and "Mary Ann" was hardly an unusual choice of forenames, false or otherwise. No surprises there.

Mary Jane Kelly affected an Irish ancestry, so - assuming her name was completely made up - "Kelly" would have been a perfectly reasonable surname to choose. Besides, she seems to have favoured the appellation "Marie Jeannette", which is different enough from plain "Mary Jane" to begin with, and is still further removed from plain "Mary Ann".

Had MJK assumed the francophone guise of "Marianne" (or "Marie Anne") there might be some vague mileage in the "same uncommon name" argument but, as it is, there's no reason to believe that we're dealing with anything other than the very faintest of coincidences.

Putting the middle name aside they were both using the name 'mary kelly'
In the 1891 census there are only 48 Mary Kellys in London between the ages of 25-35, irrespective of middle names,if you wanted to tie up a middle name as well you would be looking at a miracle. Jack may have had to hunt far and wide to find someone with the same middle name.
With any 2 victims the odds against are too ridiculous for words but for the last two??
Beggars belief that anyone still believes they were random and until someone shows how another random killer, by chance,picked out his last two victims both using the same name then it remains far fetched
The reasons behind why they were both using the name Mary Kelly are irrelevant, the only relevance is that they were both using the name on the day they died
Like I said....too many improbabilities for modern day profiling to be of any use

[packers stem]

Yes, there is.

The vast, vast majority of people accept that the killer belonged to precisely this group, whereas it's generally only conspiracy theorists seeking an "interesting" Hollywood-esque solution who insist otherwise. The idea that the killer targetted victims named "Kelly" is generally considered nonsense too, and for good reason.

What evidence is there Ben?
Surely just saying the vast majority believe that is not evidence.
Not saying he targeted kellys just that the last two were both using the name Mary Kelly on the day they died
Lottery odds against...

[Rosella]

Some things never change:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...e-MEC-20151008

^ Actually I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Jack was fond of a drink or three and had been drinking at pubs before he murdered.

[Abby Normal]

OK, just to be clear, this is the article I am talking about.

Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer. He was, perhaps, 27 or 28 and had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat. He did not carry a bag.
Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.

That's not the one I'm talking about obviously.

[Sam Flynn]

Beggars belief that anyone still believes they were random and until someone shows how another random killer, by chance,picked out his last two victims both using the same name

I don't believe the killer "picked out" any of his victims in advance, nor how he could have done so even if he wanted to. But that's a topic for another thread.

Putting the middle name aside they were both using the name 'mary kelly'

We can't put the middle name aside, though, because Eddowes evidently deliberately chose to use "Ann", not "Mary" as her middle name, and "Mary Ann" is clearly not the same as "Mary Jane".

In the 1891 census there are only 48 Mary Kellys in London between the ages of 25-35

"Mary Ann" and "Mary Jane" were common enough, and the "Kelly" part is easily explicable by the fact that it was a simple case of Eddowes' assuming her boyfriend's name. She had similarly used the surname "Conway" when hitched to a previous boyfriend, and Martha Tabram (Turner) evidently did the same. I'm sure it was a perfectly natural, and common, tactic to adopt.

[packers stem]

I don't believe the killer "picked out" any of his victims in advance, nor how he could have done so even if he wanted to

By enquiring?

We can't put the middle name aside, though, because Eddowes evidently deliberately chose to use "Ann", not "Mary" as her middle name, and "Mary Ann" is clearly not the same as "Mary Jane"

Of course we can,it was just a middle name.
Walter Sickert called himself Richard when the whim took him but it's rare that people call him Walter Richard Sickert, mostly just Walter Sickert.

the "Kelly" part is easily explicable by the fact that it was a simple case of Eddowes' assuming her boyfriend's name. She had similarly used the surname "Conway" when hitched to a previous boyfriend, and Martha Tabram (Turner) evidently did the same. I'm sure it was a perfectly natural, and common, tactic to adopt.

As I've mentioned, none of this matters. It's irrelevant how any of them chose the names they used.The only thing that's relevant to the case is that on the day the last two victims died they were both going by the name Mary Kelly
Eddowes could have called herself a hundred different names on 100 days if she wanted to but the only name that matters is the one she was using that particular day.

[jason_c]

Putting the middle name aside they were both using the name 'mary kelly'
In the 1891 census there are only 48 Mary Kellys in London between the ages of 25-35, irrespective of middle names,if you wanted to tie up a middle name as well you would be looking at a miracle. Jack may have had to hunt far and wide to find someone with the same middle name.
With any 2 victims the odds against are too ridiculous for words but for the last two??
Beggars belief that anyone still believes they were random and until someone shows how another random killer, by chance,picked out his last two victims both using the same name then it remains far fetched
The reasons behind why they were both using the name Mary Kelly are irrelevant, the only relevance is that they were both using the name on the day they died
Like I said....too many improbabilities for modern day profiling to be of any use

Considering Whitechapel was basically the Irish disctrict of London I dont think the names are that much of a coincidence. The surname Kelly would have been over-represented in the poorer areas of London. We see the same type of problem with names of that other over-represented ethnic group in Whitechapel, Polish Jews, with Kosminski/Kaminski and Cohen leading modern researchers a merry dance.

[Sam Flynn]

By enquiring?

The Ripper asks, "Are you called Mary 'Something' Kelly?", and proceeds to kill her if the answer is "Yes"? Unlikely. Given the odds of someone actually having that name, as you've already pointed out, he'd have had vastly more "misses" than "hits". There must have been dozens of women NOT called "Mary 'Something' Kelly" who survived to tell the tale.

Of course we can,it was just a middle name.

No we can't, anymore than we can claim that Polly Nichols' real name was plain old "Mary" Nichols - it wasn't, it was "Mary Ann"... which is entirely different from "Mary Jane".

The only thing that's relevant to the case is that on the day the last two victims died they were both going by the name Mary Kelly

Not quite. We only know for certain that Eddowes used "Mary Ann Kelly" once, and that was in a conversation with the police - a situation under which many people think up a false name. In contrast, "Mary Jane Kelly" had consistently used that name publicly for years before she died, and it was the name by which she was known to lovers, friends and landlords.

The situations in which these names were used are distinctly different, as are the names themselves.

[DJA]

Eddowes pawned the boots as Jane Kelly.