Social class of Jack the Ripper

[Pierre]

Hi,

What do we think could be the theoretical and practical problems or possibilities if we state that the killer came from an upper or lower class - or that he was well educated or not?

Would this have relevance for his motives? Murder methods? Choice of dates? Chance to escape the police? Chance to plan the murders? Etc.

I think I know that he was well educated and that he lived for a short time in a house that looked a bit like this one:



If he did, he must have had a lot of resources to spend and could have chosen any victims or dates. So why make the choices he did?

I will get back to that question.

Regards Pierre

[Pcdunn]

Hellos, Pierre.

You have stated elsewhere that your suspect for JTR wanted the police to catch him. Perhaps, then, he was intent on making some sort of political or social reform point by preying on women in the East End.

Also, it depends on the assumptions we make when viewing the photo of the house you have posted, together with your comment that Jack may have lived in one like it.
It does not mean, automatically, that he was a member of the upper class family that may have owned the house. He could have been a servant in that house, and still have lived there, in which case your comments about Jack's possible resources have less relevance.

[Rosella]

Pierre, if he was young(ish) well educated and spoke with the accents of the upper classes in those days, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb. This is especially as you have said your suspect is not a clergyman or doctor, the sort of person the women may have trusted.
I don't think he was from the upper classes anyway, but a local who knew the area.

[packers stem]

Pierre, if he was young(ish) well educated and spoke with the accents of the upper classes in those days, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb. This is especially as you have said your suspect is not a clergyman or doctor, the sort of person the women may have trusted.
I don't think he was from the upper classes anyway, but a local who knew the area.

Rosella you're correct, he would and indeed the man seen in millers court on Wednesday did stick out like a sore thumb...
As described by Bowyer,Kelly was seen talking to a man of 27 or 28 with a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes.
Appearance 'very smart and attention was drawn to him by his showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front of his coat'
Biggest sore thumb you could ever wish to come across I would suggest...

[Ben]

Hi Pack,

That description is almost certainly nonsense.

Bowyer, to whom the description was attributed in the press, stated at the inquest that he last saw Kelly in Miller's Court in the afternoon of the 7th, with no mention being made of any man in her company. This flatly contradicts the claim made in a single Welsh newspaper that the same witness had seen her on Wednesday night with a man with peculiar eyes and "very white cuffs" (which, incidentally, contained no reference to the the man being seen "in millers court").

Regards,
Ben

[Wickerman]

"Afternoon" and "Evening" were interchangeable terms in the late 19th century.

It is a frequent misunderstanding for people today to assume a modern meaning on expressions in use a century ago.

A quick search of 19th century newspapers is all that is required to inform ourselves as to the convention of the period.


at half-past eight o'clock on the afternoon....





31 minutes past 9 in the afternoon.




Eight o'clock in the afternoon.



Scores of examples are available.
Another Ripper-related example would be John Kelly's remark that he heard Kate had been arrested at Bishopsgate on Saturday afternoon (actually being 8:30 in the evening to our understanding).

[packers stem]

Hi Pack,

That description is almost certainly nonsense.

Bowyer, to whom the description was attributed in the press, stated at the inquest that he last saw Kelly in Miller's Court in the afternoon of the 7th, with no mention being made of any man in her company. This flatly contradicts the claim made in a single Welsh newspaper that the same witness had seen her on Wednesday night with a man with peculiar eyes and "very white cuffs" (which, incidentally, contained no reference to the the man being seen "in millers court").

Regards,
Ben

Hi Ben
I see absolutely no reason why Bowyer should mention the man at the inquest.The inquest is purely to ascertain cause and time of death.
As the sighting was the previous day then,although suspicious,it's not relevent to either time or cause of death.It's perfectly correct that it shouldn't be mentioned at the inquest .Nothing contradicted in any way.
By saying in millers court i'm quoting the A to Z.In most cases i've enough faith in those guys to not trawl through every single newspaper to find if any other than the western mail carried it.
I've mentioned before....only one newspaper mentioned Israel Schwartz and if it weren't for the home office files that story would be dismissed by many as a myth .Luckily for us it's one of the few files that wasn't collected as a trophy.You can't rely on official files alone .Many files have gone forever ,Bowyers sighting could be one,as could Abberlines interview of Mrs Kennedy
As Jon has pointed out afternoon,evening,night is just a hair split really

[Abby Normal]

Hi,

What do we think could be the theoretical and practical problems or possibilities if we state that the killer came from an upper or lower class - or that he was well educated or not?

Would this have relevance for his motives? Murder methods? Choice of dates? Chance to escape the police? Chance to plan the murders? Etc.

I think I know that he was well educated and that he lived for a short time in a house that looked a bit like this one:



If he did, he must have had a lot of resources to spend and could have chosen any victims or dates. So why make the choices he did?

I will get back to that question.

Regards Pierre

Hi Pierre
I think all things considered, and emphasizing the credible witness sightings, I think that the ripper came from a social class at least slightly higher, than his victims. Not sure how to categorize it but perhaps lower middle class or upper lower class? if that makes sense.

He seems to have had a steady job,I think he had his own place, and not forced to live in a doss house, though he may have from time to time for his own purposes. I don't think he was affluent though. He may have been at some point, maybe not, but not during the time of the crimes.

And if Dear boss (and even the GSG) are authentic, and I think theres a good chance they are, then he was educated also. And we know he was smart enough not to get caught.

[Abby Normal]

BTW Piere,
I know you think the GSG is authentic, so do I. But what do you think about dear boss or from hell letters-real?

[Robert St Devil]

That chicken coop? Pshaw! My servants quarters is bigger.

Hello Pierre and Everyone.
Every class has a name for their squalor. The uppers have manors. The middles have cottages. And the lowers had lodges (but may have served in manors). If that house was in London city (and not off in the countryside), id say it was upper middle - like a judge or doctor's residence or a tenured profession ( like head mAster of Rugby).

Sidenote: does anyone consider the C5 or the Champan/Eddowes/Kelly murders to be very elaborate crimes? Are they complicated murders?

[Pierre]

Pierre, if he was young(ish) well educated and spoke with the accents of the upper classes in those days, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb. This is especially as you have said your suspect is not a clergyman or doctor, the sort of person the women may have trusted.
I don't think he was from the upper classes anyway, but a local who knew the area.

Hi Rosella,

what evidence do you base your local guy idea on?

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

BTW Piere,
I know you think the GSG is authentic, so do I. But what do you think about dear boss or from hell letters-real?

Hi Abby,

I can only allow myself to think that letters predicting the murders could have been written by the murderer.

I have found such a letter (unknown by ripperology) in the press. He uses a metaphorical language and gives the adress to Millerīs Court, the name of Mary Jane Kelly, her room number and the date of the murder.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

what evidence do you base your local guy idea on?

It'll be quite funny if it turns out to be the same data taken from your sources.

[Pierre]

It'll be quite funny if it turns out to be the same data taken from your sources.

Very. But Iīm not doing this for the fun of it. And nobody has my data, beacause if they did, everybody would know the name of the killer.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

I have found such a letter in the press. He uses a metaphorical language and gives the adress to Millerīs Court, the name of Mary Jane Kelly, her room number and the date of the murder.

Are you saying that all that information, about the name of Mary Jane, her address and the date of her murder, was in 'a metaphorical language'? Or are you saying that information was in plain English with the rest of the letter being in a metaphorical language?

Why do I have a strange feeling it's the former?