Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[pinkmoon]

What in your opinion would those, "more detailed", tests entail?

Let the original be tested not photocopies I believe there is a test that can reveal when pencil was put to paper it's been tested but it hasn't been tested thouroughly.In my vast collection of ripper books (which ended up in the charity shop when I went paperless and acquired a kindle)I used to write notes in pencil and underline things but I never felt the need to initial my work that always struck me strange that Swanson did this and from the copies I've examined on line the added bit about Kosminski does look a lot different like I said before it's my opinion but the initial thing always made me wonder.

[pinkmoon]

I know a lot of you have spent a lot of time ,effort and money researching Kosminski and the seaside home which I greatly admire and respect you all for but unless the starting point of your research can be proved genuine then you have nothing.my deepest regards jason.

[Observer]

Let the original be tested not photocopies I believe there is a test that can reveal when pencil was put to paper it's been tested but it hasn't been tested thouroughly.In my vast collection of ripper books (which ended up in the charity shop when I went paperless and acquired a kindle)I used to write notes in pencil and underline things but I never felt the need to initial my work that always struck me strange and from the copies I've examined on line the adding bit about Kosminski does look a lot different like I said before it's my opinion but the initial thing always made me wonder.

I'll have to revisit the threads dealing with the marginalia, my memory fails me as to the extent of testing the marginalia has been subjected to. I wouldn't know of the test you refer to which can determine when pencil was put to paper. Would you provide further details regarding this test?

Regardless of this, it's a poor observation to rule out the authenticity of the marginalia on the strength that you decided not to initial your notes, whereas Swanson did.

[pinkmoon]

I'll have to revisit the threads dealing with the marginalia, my memory fails me as to the extent of testing the marginalia has been subjected to. I wouldn't know of the test you refer to which can determine when pencil was put to paper. Could you give me more details regarding this test?

Regardless of this, it's a poor observation to rule out the authenticity of the marginalia on the strength that you decided not to initial your notes, whereas Swanson did.

Like I said just my personal interpretation of the facts presented to me not out to upset anyone but the kosminski thing seems to hinge on those margin notes so they have to be proven genuine.

[Observer]

Like I said just my personal interpretation of the facts presented to me not out to upset anyone but the kosminski thing seems to hinge on those margin notes so they have to be proven genuine.

I don't believe you are out to upset anyone.

Although the marginalia (if authentic) is an important element in the Kosminski saga, I wouldn't go as far to say that Kosminski's candidacy hinges on it's authenticity. I'd still be interested in the test you refer to which can determine the age of the marginalia.

[Pcdunn]

At the beginning of this year I had an interesting discussion (private) with Jeff Leahy about White.

White stated:

"For five nights we had been watching a certain alley behind the Whitechapel Road. It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding…”

Sergeant Edward Badham - The Mackenzie murder- :

“Badham was on duty in the vicinity of Castle Alley… On hearing the second whistle I rushed up Newcastle-street and met Andrews who shouted out, "Come on, quick." I threw my cape to the ground and rushed up after him. I saw a woman lying on the pavement on the near side with her throat cut, and her head lying in a pool of blood. The legs and stomach were exposed...“

“Police-sergeant Badham, 31 H, stated:- About 12 minutes to 1 this morning I was in Old Castle-street and saw Constable Andrews. I went up to him and said, "All right?" He replied, "All right, sergeant… I got the assistance of other constables and blocked up the ends of the alley”

"blocked up the ends of the alley" (Badham) and "It could only be entered from where we had two men posted in hiding" (White)

“It was a bitter cold night when I arrived at the scene to take the report of the two men in hiding” (White)

Ok, it was the 17th of July 1889 but “12:45 A.M.: It begins to rain in Whitechapel”

http://www.casebook.org/victims/mckenzie.html

"...a certain alley behind the Whitechapel Road" (White)

Castle Alley - Mackenzie crime scene: This area is behind Whitechapel High Street not Whitechapel Road. But is that important?

"...there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body" (White).

"...her throat cut, and her head lying in a pool of blood" (Badham).

I am not really interested in the Mackenzie murder but I would say White talked about the Mackenzie murder.

Druitt was already dead in July 1889.

"The man was foreign in appearance" (White). And Thompson?

As I said; Mackenzie is not my theme.

Very interesting post! Thompson was an English Catholic, from what I can make out, I'm not sure if he had some Irish ancestry. "Foreign appearance" in the newspapers seemed to be code for "Jewish", though it may also mean an immigrant (Irishman?) or a seaman.
I have more reading to do, I think..

[S.Brett]

At the end of the cul-de-sac huddled against the wall, there was the body of a woman, and a pool of blood was streaming along the gutter from her body. It was clearly another of those terrible murders. I remembered the man I had seen, and I started after him as fast as I could run, but he was lost to sight in the dark labyrinth of East End mean streets.’

If we take his words literally then this does not fit Alice McKenzie at all. She was found near the curb far from the wall with her head almost under one of the barrows and was not huddled but laying flat on her back.

Also this statement negates Castle Alley: As he turned away, one of the police officers came out of the house he had been in, and walked a few paces into the darkness of the alley. ‘Hello! What is this?’ he cried, and then called in startled tones for me to come along.

PC Walter Andrews found the body shortly after speaking to Edward Badham further up the alley where it connects with Old Castle Street (There was no cul-de-sac where she was found). He then ran north, leaving the body, where he met up with Isaac Jacobs. Jacobs would have been the first to hear of the murder until Badham arrived. Andrews never mentioned being in a house and never mentioned White being involved at all.

Hello jerryd, (and Pcdunn)

It seems you are right!

Walter Dew - The man who caught crippen- Nicholas Connell:

"Dew was sure she was not. Dew argued his case forcible, as he had done when he had attempt to make the case for Emma Smith being a ripper victim. This was the crux of Dew´s case."

The hunt for Jack the Ripper- Walter Dew:

"Underneath the body was found a brightly polished farthing. This in the dim light might easily have been mistaken for a half-sovereign, and the theory held was that Mackenzie had been lured to her death by the offer of a gold coin. This was probably the true explanation, for another woman came forward to say that the offer of a similar coin had been made to her, but she had discovered the trick and had run away. Her description of the man was " a dark foreigner, speaking good English ". Jack the Ripper had never been in the habit of decoying his victims with bright farthings. Nor had he ever made the mistake of allowing one of his intended victims to escape."

"His voice was a surprise to me" / "the man was foreign in appearance" (Dew´s story) and " a dark foreigner, speaking good English" (in the case of Mackenzie)

Another "cul-de-sac":

"Marie Kelly was the most horribly mutilated of all Jack the Ripper's victims. I know because I was the first police officer on the scene of that ghastly crime in Miller's Court, a cul-de-sac off Dorset Street."

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.walterdew.html

Behind Whitechapel Road/High Street?

Emma Smith was found not dead and Tabram died indoor. Both "crime scenes" were behind Whitechapel High Street. Buck´s Row (Nichols) is behind Whitechapel Road. Eddowes was found in Mitre Square behind Aldgate High Street. In general, W- Road-High Street- Aldgate High Street are one street.

For me, Dew is a mystery.

[S.Brett]

Isn't the context of that statement that 'Begg' believes that Aaron Kozminski was Anderson's suspect and Swanson's suspect for that matter… But like Rumblow questions whether Stride was a Jack the Ripper Murder?

I suggest you take that question up with 'Begg' its not for me to comment. I've never been certain of his opinion on that subject.

I'd simply state my opinion, anyone drawing that conclusion would be in err

ISnt this exactly what this discussion 'thread' is about? The 'new' guard of Kozminskite theory?

Lets face it Simon you like the 'others', you are old school and the new-school wish to expand and build on the experts and research before them.

Hopefully we can all be asking questions of 'Martin Fido' (who clearly understands that Stride 'was' a ripper victim) at this years conference (Nottingham)

Yours Jeff

An interview with Paul Begg; okay, it is a long time ago:

"4. Which suspect(s), if any, do you believe are most likely to have been the murderer, and why"?

"I am convinced that "Kosminski" was Aaron Kosminski - in my opinion a decisive pointer to that identification is Anderson's statement that the suspect indulged in 'utterly unmentionable vices', which corresponds with the 'self-abuse' referred to in Kosminski's medical notes (and, incidentally, to the 'solitary vices' attributed to 'Kosminski' in the Macnaghten Memorandum)."

"I think their suspect has to be top of the suspect list, *has* to be the prime candidate for further research. I don't know whether he was Jack the Ripper, but Anderson clearly thought so."

http://www.casebook.org/authors/interviews/paul_begg.1.html

Paul Begg:

"notably the fact that he appears not to have been identified until 1891"

Maybe because an incident was denied (official) from end of 1888 until 1890/91 or an incident did later happen (summer 1890- at the beginning of 1891).

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

I believe reference as been made to Kosminski's relatives being wealthy tailors. I wonder if they sold astrachan trimmed coats!

My understanding is that they sold ladies fashions. Which makes me wonder about the trade Hairdresser?

Principally high fashion ladies Mantals

However yes I've wondered if one of the brothers would own such a garment? Certainly we know Issac owned a Silver Watch and Chain. This would be an itom of great value in the poverty of the Eastend.

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Certainly we know Issac owned a Silver Watch and Chain. This would be an itom of great value in the poverty of the Eastend.

Yours Jeff

Good Morning!

Do you mean the gold watch and a metal chain belonging to Betsy and Woolf? There was a burglary at Woolf Abrahams´house in 1886.

[Jeff Leahy]

"I think their suspect has to be top of the suspect list, *has* to be the prime candidate for further research. I don't know whether he was Jack the Ripper, but Anderson clearly thought so."
.

Hi Karsten

Yes I didn't wish to appear critical of Paul Begg. I think he's fairly well known for being cautious.. The exact opposite of myself

But this is very much as I've understood his position that if further research should be done this would be the most useful line of enquiry. Which I whole heartedly agree with. I don't believe it can be understated how much if not most of what we owe to the subject derives from Fido and Begg.

I have been noting with interest the news paper clippings from Rees-Philips. I believe Catrin has more somewhere on him and did some background research. We'll push this back to Surrey History Centre.

But I was most intrigued by the payments weekly rates with quartly advances. If they were requesting this form of payment at Holloway it seems reasonable that it was widely used practice. While I've always propositioned the cyclicure nature of schizophrenia to explain Aaron coming and going from a private asylum, perhaps a more simple explanation was money?

If they had to pay in advance then he'd be back on the streets the moment the money ran out..

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning!

Do you mean the gold watch and a metal chain belonging to Betsy and Woolf? There was a burglary at Woolf Abrahams´house in 1886.

Yes I was referencing the burglary and the man caught in the act of steeling the watch…thought it was Silver but was working from memory and yes Betsy ad Woolfe

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten

Yes I didn't wish to appear critical of Paul Begg. I think he's fairly well known for being cautious.. The exact opposite of myself
Yours Jeff

Paul Begg, Robert House, Donald Rumbelow, Stewart P. Evans, Martin Fido are my heroes and there are many others I like; Neil Bell, Mike Covell, Pat Marshall, Jennifer Sheldon and Debra Arif…

If Aaron Kozminski is "Kosminski" and if he was Jack the Ripper then there is, perhaps, another forgotten "victim"; his sister Matilda Lubnowski.

[Jeff Leahy]

If Aaron Kozminski is "Kosminski" and if he was Jack the Ripper then there is, perhaps, another forgotten "victim"; his sister Matilda Lubnowski.

Hi Karsten

Is it possible to re-post the information and times on the Matilda knife incident?

Just as a quick reminder, for a number of reasons I'm more interested in Bethlam than Holloway. However I think I've pretty much established from the Ladies admissions book that they did take Jewish patients and people from Eastend…remember one woman admitted in Sept 1889 was actually given as cause of madness 'Whitechapel Murders' unfortunately I could discover no more about this woman.

The question with Holloway is could Rees-Philips have had some connection to Jewish communities in the Eastend and so far we've drawn a blank. Will keep searching.

Yours jeff

[AdamNeilWood]

Let the original be tested not photocopies I believe there is a test that can reveal when pencil was put to paper it's been tested but it hasn't been tested thouroughly.In my vast collection of ripper books (which ended up in the charity shop when I went paperless and acquired a kindle)I used to write notes in pencil and underline things but I never felt the need to initial my work that always struck me strange that Swanson did this and from the copies I've examined on line the added bit about Kosminski does look a lot different like I said before it's my opinion but the initial thing always made me wonder.

A photocopy of the marginalia was given a cursory look at by Dr Richard Totty, Assistant Director of the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, in 1988.

The actual marginalia was examined by Dr Christopher Davies of the Metropolitan Police Forensic Science Laboratory, while the book was loaned to Scotland Yard's Crime Museum in 2006.

Dr Davies conducted a second examination in 2012 after several documents and letters written by Swanson were 'rediscovered' by Nevill Swanson while sorting through paperwork, giving an opportunity to compare against a much wider range of sample handwriting.

You might be interested in reading this:

https://www.ripperologist.biz/marginalia.pdf

Best wishes
Adam