Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Roy Corduroy]

Aaron Kosminski's Shop ?

This is supported by Harry Cox who claimed the suspect he followed entered a private asylum in Surrey ...

Yes but his suspect was not Aaron Kosminski. The man City Detective Cox had under surveillance had his shop. HIS shop. That's spelled H I S. He was the shopkeeper, the proprietor of the shop. He rented space and conducted business, and was seen busy as usual in daylight hours. He saw customers.

Aaron Kosminski had not attempted any work in years. Much less had been in business for himself with his own shop.

Aaron Kosminski's shop - there was no such place.

... a number of people including Rob House have speculated that Cox might be talking about Kozminski, ...

Call it collective denial. Of what Detective Cox in fact wrote.

I'm actually trying to help you Jeff, from digging a deeper hole.

Roy

[Jeff Leahy]

Yes but his suspect was not Aaron Kosminski.

Cox never names the man he follows. However he does talk about using sweater shops inspectors as a discuise

The man City Detective Cox had under surveillance had his shop. HIS shop. That's spelled H I S.

Then we must consider the possibility that Aaron at some point worked in one of any number of shops associated to the wider Kozminski family, actually it makes much sense,as he states occupies several premises. I've speculated as an odd job man and given the nature of schizophrenia 'Night watchman'

He was the shopkeeper, the proprietor of the shop. He rented space and conducted business, and was seen busy as usual in daylight hours. He saw customers.

Then we must assume a high level of functionality in 1888.

Aaron Kosminski had not attempted any work in years. Much less had been in business for himself with his own shop.

Roy

This was stated in 1891. If Kozminski entered a private asylum in March 1889 then we are talking about years.

Remember that Cox describes a man who he believed to be the murder, took late night walks and 'From time to time' became insane..

This is consistent with early stage schizophrenia which hits the sufferer in waves

Cox..he "was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey." This matches the reports in the Dublin Times in December…It would also fit with Kozminski entering Holloway or Bethlam

I trust that clarify's

Yours Jeff

[Harry D]

What are the chances of Harry Cox's suspect being Jacob Levy?

[pinkmoon]

What are the chances of Harry Cox's suspect being Jacob Levy?

They were probley shadowing a LOT of people who lived near the murder sites I think its quite possible that anyone who for want of a better word was a "loon"and lived locally was followed I would include kosminski in this all though it dosnt make him jack the ripper if kosminski was been shadowed and then the police found out the he had just picked up a knife to his sister their eyes must have lite up (mine certainly would if I was a policeman)however it dosnt make kosminski jack the ripper as sir Melville wrote "many homicidal maniacs were suspected"and as kosminski was alleged to have picked up a knife he must have stood out from the crowd the police must have thought local+loon+knife=jack the ripper.The next step is to try and prove he was their man so why not try and I.D him they couldn't do that and the rest is history and he sticks in the minds of senior policeman because of the knife incident and they interrupt the action of the witness as a refusal because the suspect was a fellow Jew.

[Jeff Leahy]

Just reminding everyone what it says on Wiki:

He then says that although the police had many people under observation at the time of the murders, it was not until Kelly's death that they "seemed to get upon the trail", when investigations made by "several of our cleverest detectives" indicated that a man living in the East End was "not unlikely to have been connected with the crimes" - a formula similar to the one used at the start of the article. Further on he adds that the opinion of most of the officers who were watching the man was that he "had something to do with the crimes". He is convinced that the motive was revenge on womankind, not "a lust for blood", and that the murderer, like his victims, belonged to the "lowest class".
There follows a description of the suspect: "The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair, and he had a habit of taking late walks abroad. He occupied several shops in the East End, but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."
Cox adds that he was on duty in the street where the suspect had his place of business for nearly three months after the last murder (presumably meaning that of Kelly). The officers allayed the suspicions of the Jewish inhabitants of the street by telling them that they were factory inspectors investigating the exploitation of children by tailors and capmakers. They had the use of a house opposite the suspect's shop, and often visited it in disguise, posing as customers.
He then relates how he shadowed the man one night. Waiting until the man had left the street before emerging, he followed him to Leman Street, where he visited a shop which was the abode of known criminals, then to St George's in the East, where he accosted a woman, then to the neighbourhood of "the model lodging-house", where he met another woman and walked with her before pushing her away and returning home.
Cox comments that the crimes ceased as soon as the man was put under observation, and that he soon "removed from his usual haunts and gave up his nightly prowls". But then he adds that "not the slightest scrap of evidence" could be found against him, and that the police continued to investigate the crimes long afterwards. He concludes by saying that the crimes are as much a mystery as they were "fifteen years ago", that the theories of amateur detectives are based on nothing more than surmise, and that the murderer will be identified only if he confesses and proves himself guilty, or if he kills again and is caught red-handed. Finally he says that he has no evidence as to whether the murer is alive or dead.


I've highlight this because it supports what MacNAughten knows or rather doesn't know about Kozminski

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Cox never names the man he follows. However he does talk about using sweater shops inspectors as a discuise



Then we must consider the possibility that Aaron at some point worked in one of any number of shops associated to the wider Kozminski family, actually it makes much sense,as he states occupies several premises. I've speculated as an odd job man and given the nature of schizophrenia 'Night watchman'



Then we must assume a high level of functionality in 1888.



This was stated in 1891. If Kozminski entered a private asylum in March 1889 then we are talking about years.

Remember that Cox describes a man who he believed to be the murder, took late night walks and 'From time to time' became insane..

This is consistent with early stage schizophrenia which hits the sufferer in waves

Cox..he "was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey." This matches the reports in the Dublin Times in December…It would also fit with Kozminski entering Holloway or Bethlam

I trust that clarify's

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff!

Woolf Abrahams was in a business partnership with Jacob Cohen and Thomas Davies, running a manufactory (women´s mantles) at 51 Carter Lane (City of London). The manufactory was probably small and the business short-lived. The dissolution of the partnership was printed in the London Gazette on July 17, 1891.

Davies, Cohen and Company:

Woolf Abrahams´s own manufactory?
Jacob Cohen´s own manufactory?
Thomas Davies´s own manufactory?

Imagine:

Woolf Abrahams was in a business partnership with Jacob Cohen and with his own brother Aaron Abrahams (Aaron Kozminski - or as employee) in 1888. A small shop and the business short-lived.

Is it:

Woolf´s own shop?
Jacob´s own shop?
Aaron´s own shop?

If an employee working and living day and night in a shop of his own brother one might suppose this is his own shop...

Yours Karsten.

[Phil Carter]

Just reminding everyone what it says on Wiki:

Hello Jeff,

Without having looked it up. .can you tell me who wrote the Wiki piece you just quoted? Thanks.


Phil

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jeff,

Without having looked it up. .can you tell me who wrote the Wiki piece you just quoted? Thanks.


Phil

I think it's quoted from Henry Cox

[S.Brett]

Ripper Wiki:

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Henry_Cox

[GregBaron]

And the Winner is...

What are the chances of Harry Cox's suspect being Jacob Levy?

This is a good question Harry. I believe it could have been. There are some incongruities here but the case is full of them...

He lived very near, he wandered at night, he was a petty thief, a Jew, a butcher, drank booze, got syphilis and died in an asylum "shortly thereafter"...

Pair that we the strange behavior of his cousin Levy in the Mitre Square sighting, the deliberate obfuscation of Lawende to prevent the probable pogrom, and we got ourselves a winner.........


Greg

[S.Brett]

Its a really interesting thread I've not seen before, I hope Chris George won't mind my reposting his item on Jewish law. (Ah! to big for casebook sorry)

Its again interesting that Anderson might be referencing something specific when he talks about 'not giving up one of there own'

I wonder if anyone knows more about the Rabi brother? I'd be most interested if this guy could be connected to Montegue or Crawford

Lets face it if they were dealing with a problem it seems reasonable they would turn to the family Rabi, I wonder if he is connected to the synagog in the ally behind Issac's workshops?

Yours Jeff

Btw.:

The Ultimate Jack The Ripper Sourcebook Evans/Skinner, Chapter 22, page 422, 21 November 1888 - A Second Outrage?

The Times, November 22 1888 carried a report of the incident:

(There followed "Murderous Outrage in Whitechapel" - "Farmer")

Remember:

21 November, 7:30 AM - 9:30 AM Farmer
22 November, 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM "Brick Lane incident"

East Anglian Daily Times of Monday, 26 November 1888:

"...and the police are inclined to believe that the affair was only an ordinary brawl, and that the woman is acquainted with the man who assailed her, but will not give information which will lead to his detection."

Imagine that Aaron was in a private asylum after the incident near Brick Lane and his family did not give whereabouts information, then the police would have visited all the private asylums:

December 1888

“The Dublin Express London correspondent on Thursday gave as the latest police theory concerning the Whitechapel murderer, that he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace, may have placed him out of harm's way in safe keeping. As showing that there is a certain amount of credence attached to this story, detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted.”

Remember what Cox said:

"Certain investigations made by several of our cleverest detectives made it apparent to us that a man living in the East End of London was not unlikely to have been connected with the crimes."

"...and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."

Maybe, the City PC near Mitre Square did recognize "Kosminski" in December 1888, "sometime afterwards", and that is why the City Police had watched the suspect (and not the MET police, no "witness" so far).

[S.Brett]

Macnaghten:

"This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square."

Sims:

"'The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder."

Sagar:

"a police-constable met a man of Jewish appearance hurrying out of the court."

"A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square"

"A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court"

(Btw.: I think that Mitre Street was formerly known as Mitre Court)

Imagine that there was an incident with Aaron and Matilda on 22. November 1888 and afterwards the City PC did recognise Aaron in "height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder" ("in appearance strongly resembled") then the Kozminski family had a problem.

[Paddy]

"the model lodging-house"

Can anbody tell me where the Model Lodging house was?
Thanks
Pat.............

[RockySullivan]

Why would the indenting action taken place at a police home unless the witness or suspect was a former policeman? Could this have been the case? Perhaps both?

[harry]

Monty,
Monroe it was.Check Jeff's post 821.
So lets leave aside the terminology,and get back to the heading of the thread.Did the seaside home ID happen.Were Anderson,Swanson and Monroe present at that ID as claimed by Jeff.Now I do not worry if you care not to answer,it is after all not your claim,but your intervention suggests you might have an opinion.
Jeff doesn't seem inclined to further add anything,the provenence of which would put beyond doubt Swanson's claim of an ID at a seaside home.A pity,because it is the only information that connects Kosminski to the murders.
Makes the claim of Kosminski being the best suspect laughable.