Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[GregBaron]

And the Winner is...

What are the chances of Harry Cox's suspect being Jacob Levy?

This is a good question Harry. I believe it could have been. There are some incongruities here but the case is full of them...

He lived very near, he wandered at night, he was a petty thief, a Jew, a butcher, drank booze, got syphilis and died in an asylum "shortly thereafter"...

Pair that we the strange behavior of his cousin Levy in the Mitre Square sighting, the deliberate obfuscation of Lawende to prevent the probable pogrom, and we got ourselves a winner.........


Greg

[S.Brett]

Ripper Wiki:

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Henry_Cox

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jeff,

Without having looked it up. .can you tell me who wrote the Wiki piece you just quoted? Thanks.


Phil

I think it's quoted from Henry Cox

[Phil Carter]

Just reminding everyone what it says on Wiki:

Hello Jeff,

Without having looked it up. .can you tell me who wrote the Wiki piece you just quoted? Thanks.


Phil

[S.Brett]

Cox never names the man he follows. However he does talk about using sweater shops inspectors as a discuise



Then we must consider the possibility that Aaron at some point worked in one of any number of shops associated to the wider Kozminski family, actually it makes much sense,as he states occupies several premises. I've speculated as an odd job man and given the nature of schizophrenia 'Night watchman'



Then we must assume a high level of functionality in 1888.



This was stated in 1891. If Kozminski entered a private asylum in March 1889 then we are talking about years.

Remember that Cox describes a man who he believed to be the murder, took late night walks and 'From time to time' became insane..

This is consistent with early stage schizophrenia which hits the sufferer in waves

Cox..he "was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey." This matches the reports in the Dublin Times in December…It would also fit with Kozminski entering Holloway or Bethlam

I trust that clarify's

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff!

Woolf Abrahams was in a business partnership with Jacob Cohen and Thomas Davies, running a manufactory (women´s mantles) at 51 Carter Lane (City of London). The manufactory was probably small and the business short-lived. The dissolution of the partnership was printed in the London Gazette on July 17, 1891.

Davies, Cohen and Company:

Woolf Abrahams´s own manufactory?
Jacob Cohen´s own manufactory?
Thomas Davies´s own manufactory?

Imagine:

Woolf Abrahams was in a business partnership with Jacob Cohen and with his own brother Aaron Abrahams (Aaron Kozminski - or as employee) in 1888. A small shop and the business short-lived.

Is it:

Woolf´s own shop?
Jacob´s own shop?
Aaron´s own shop?

If an employee working and living day and night in a shop of his own brother one might suppose this is his own shop...

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Just reminding everyone what it says on Wiki:

He then says that although the police had many people under observation at the time of the murders, it was not until Kelly's death that they "seemed to get upon the trail", when investigations made by "several of our cleverest detectives" indicated that a man living in the East End was "not unlikely to have been connected with the crimes" - a formula similar to the one used at the start of the article. Further on he adds that the opinion of most of the officers who were watching the man was that he "had something to do with the crimes". He is convinced that the motive was revenge on womankind, not "a lust for blood", and that the murderer, like his victims, belonged to the "lowest class".
There follows a description of the suspect: "The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair, and he had a habit of taking late walks abroad. He occupied several shops in the East End, but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."
Cox adds that he was on duty in the street where the suspect had his place of business for nearly three months after the last murder (presumably meaning that of Kelly). The officers allayed the suspicions of the Jewish inhabitants of the street by telling them that they were factory inspectors investigating the exploitation of children by tailors and capmakers. They had the use of a house opposite the suspect's shop, and often visited it in disguise, posing as customers.
He then relates how he shadowed the man one night. Waiting until the man had left the street before emerging, he followed him to Leman Street, where he visited a shop which was the abode of known criminals, then to St George's in the East, where he accosted a woman, then to the neighbourhood of "the model lodging-house", where he met another woman and walked with her before pushing her away and returning home.
Cox comments that the crimes ceased as soon as the man was put under observation, and that he soon "removed from his usual haunts and gave up his nightly prowls". But then he adds that "not the slightest scrap of evidence" could be found against him, and that the police continued to investigate the crimes long afterwards. He concludes by saying that the crimes are as much a mystery as they were "fifteen years ago", that the theories of amateur detectives are based on nothing more than surmise, and that the murderer will be identified only if he confesses and proves himself guilty, or if he kills again and is caught red-handed. Finally he says that he has no evidence as to whether the murer is alive or dead.


I've highlight this because it supports what MacNAughten knows or rather doesn't know about Kozminski

Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

What are the chances of Harry Cox's suspect being Jacob Levy?

They were probley shadowing a LOT of people who lived near the murder sites I think its quite possible that anyone who for want of a better word was a "loon"and lived locally was followed I would include kosminski in this all though it dosnt make him jack the ripper if kosminski was been shadowed and then the police found out the he had just picked up a knife to his sister their eyes must have lite up (mine certainly would if I was a policeman)however it dosnt make kosminski jack the ripper as sir Melville wrote "many homicidal maniacs were suspected"and as kosminski was alleged to have picked up a knife he must have stood out from the crowd the police must have thought local+loon+knife=jack the ripper.The next step is to try and prove he was their man so why not try and I.D him they couldn't do that and the rest is history and he sticks in the minds of senior policeman because of the knife incident and they interrupt the action of the witness as a refusal because the suspect was a fellow Jew.

[Harry D]

What are the chances of Harry Cox's suspect being Jacob Levy?

[Jeff Leahy]

Yes but his suspect was not Aaron Kosminski.

Cox never names the man he follows. However he does talk about using sweater shops inspectors as a discuise

The man City Detective Cox had under surveillance had his shop. HIS shop. That's spelled H I S.

Then we must consider the possibility that Aaron at some point worked in one of any number of shops associated to the wider Kozminski family, actually it makes much sense,as he states occupies several premises. I've speculated as an odd job man and given the nature of schizophrenia 'Night watchman'

He was the shopkeeper, the proprietor of the shop. He rented space and conducted business, and was seen busy as usual in daylight hours. He saw customers.

Then we must assume a high level of functionality in 1888.

Aaron Kosminski had not attempted any work in years. Much less had been in business for himself with his own shop.

Roy

This was stated in 1891. If Kozminski entered a private asylum in March 1889 then we are talking about years.

Remember that Cox describes a man who he believed to be the murder, took late night walks and 'From time to time' became insane..

This is consistent with early stage schizophrenia which hits the sufferer in waves

Cox..he "was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey." This matches the reports in the Dublin Times in December…It would also fit with Kozminski entering Holloway or Bethlam

I trust that clarify's

Yours Jeff

[Roy Corduroy]

Aaron Kosminski's Shop ?

This is supported by Harry Cox who claimed the suspect he followed entered a private asylum in Surrey ...

Yes but his suspect was not Aaron Kosminski. The man City Detective Cox had under surveillance had his shop. HIS shop. That's spelled H I S. He was the shopkeeper, the proprietor of the shop. He rented space and conducted business, and was seen busy as usual in daylight hours. He saw customers.

Aaron Kosminski had not attempted any work in years. Much less had been in business for himself with his own shop.

Aaron Kosminski's shop - there was no such place.

... a number of people including Rob House have speculated that Cox might be talking about Kozminski, ...

Call it collective denial. Of what Detective Cox in fact wrote.

I'm actually trying to help you Jeff, from digging a deeper hole.

Roy

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff!

I have already written to you that there was a Rabbi in 6 Yalford Street, Israel Lubnowski-Cohen. Yalford Street was next to Greenfield Street where Morris & Matilda Lubnowski and Isaac & Bertha Abrahams were living at the time. Before Woolf and Betsy Abrahams moved to Providence Street they had also lived in Greenfield Street and you know; "34 Yalford St. from before March 1889 to after May 1889 (exact dates are unclear)" -Rob House, Prime suspect-.

I did not know much more...

But then Rob House again:

"Morris Lubnowski's older brother was a rabbi, living at 6 Yalford Street in the 1891 census:

1891 census (5 April) - Israel [Lubnowsky] Cohen at 6 Yalford St

Rabbi Minister (37), b. Poland Carlish [Kalisz], with wife Leah (30), b. Poland [?]Kutnor [Kutno], children [?]Lilly [or Tilly] (7), Rachael (4), Joseph (2), all b. Poland, and Kitty (7 months), b. London Mile End."

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17414

Joseph (2) born in Poland? 1888 or 1889?

Its a really interesting thread I've not seen before, I hope Chris George won't mind my reposting his item on Jewish law. (Ah! to big for casebook sorry)

Its again interesting that Anderson might be referencing something specific when he talks about 'not giving up one of there own'

I wonder if anyone knows more about the Rabi brother? I'd be most interested if this guy could be connected to Montegue or Crawford

Lets face it if they were dealing with a problem it seems reasonable they would turn to the family Rabi, I wonder if he is connected to the synagog in the ally behind Issac's workshops?

Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

Sort of my first introduction o the case. In those days it was all Royal conspiracy. I still love it however

I remember my aunt taking me to the Eastend and talking about Jack the Ripper her mothers Uncle was even a Ripper suspect, they were Parnells.

But I'm afraid I don't remember much more than all the house's in London looked Black in those days. All the bricks were black and the chimneys smoked constantly. Even Westminster and St Pauls were Black.

Just on a point you raised early about Anderson and Monroe keeping it quiet. As Maonroe called it a 'Hot Potato' the Crawford letter says the woman was in fear of her life..

We are talking about a potentially explosive point in History, and the Kozminski family were bang slap in the middle, hated by exploited workers on one side and disgruntled native workers on the other.

You have to place what happened in its historical context. They would certain speak out today, but in those days it just wasn't done.

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,my great grandparents on my dad's side were both kids during the autumn of terror they actually lived in the area I was told many a tale over the years about how this top hat cloak wearing fiend complete with his Gladstone bag held them all in terror which only ended because he threw himself into the Thames!.As for hot potatoes I'm convinced the police wouldn't keep the killers identity secret.my regards and happy viewing jason.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,all six parts of Barlow and watts are on YouTube now watched first episode before and found it very entertaining.

Sort of my first introduction o the case. In those days it was all Royal conspiracy. I still love it however

I remember my aunt taking me to the Eastend and talking about Jack the Ripper her mothers Uncle was even a Ripper suspect, they were Parnells.

But I'm afraid I don't remember much more than all the house's in London looked Black in those days. All the bricks were black and the chimneys smoked constantly. Even Westminster and St Pauls were Black.

Just on a point you raised early about Anderson and Monroe keeping it quiet. As Maonroe called it a 'Hot Potato' the Crawford letter says the woman was in fear of her life..

We are talking about a potentially explosive point in History, and the Kozminski family were bang slap in the middle, hated by exploited workers on one side and disgruntled native workers on the other.

You have to place what happened in its historical context. They would certain speak out today, but in those days it just wasn't done.

Yours Jeff

[Monty]

Suspects become so when information is of a suspicious nature.There is no known information connecting Kosminski with the killing of anyone.There is a claim,by Swanson ,that he was identified at a seaside home,a claim that is disputed,and as yet to be proven.
The latest claim is that Anderson,Swanson and Monroe were present at that ID.The claimant is being asked to prove their presence.If he can,then suspicion can be said to have been established.Kosminski can be accepted as a suspect.Simple as that.
Personnely I do not believe the claim will be proven.
W hat says you Monty?
It is as it is,as you say.

Monroe? Surely Munro yeah? ;-)

Being suspicious is not an inference of guilt, nor should it be taken that is exactly what Swanson is stating with his use of the word 'suspect'. Anderson goes a step further in his use of both 'suspect' and 'murderer' in his book (although he does tone it down to just 'suspect' in the Blackwoods version), however, again for clarity, Swanson refrains from going that far. He is in the privacy of his own home, and needs not to sell books. That said, the fact Swanson notes this passage in his copy of Andersons book does indeed lean toward comments being made upon the same incident.

No, there is no known information connecting Kosminski killing anyone, whoever just because we cannot locate it does not mean it did not exist. Personally Ive never been to the moon however I am willing to believe that it isn't made of cheese due to the evidence presented. Now some will blindly question anything, that is their nature, despite being shown evidence suggesting a certain conclusion is entirely plausible and most likely probable. And there is nothing wrong in that if they can provide equally reasoned alternatives, instead of the convoluted conspiracy theories with no valid rhyme nor reason nor evidence as to why Anderson and his cronies would create such a yarn.

Swanson does not have a track record for being intentionally misleading, nor does he have a strong track record for being constantly erroneous. What he states, and what Anderson states also, is a part of a contemporary process of investigation for the period. We see it during the Whitechapel murder cases with regards the Gillbanks, Fiddymont & Chappell, and the attempt to identify Isenschmid. Albeit years later, we see Arthur Harding citing exactly that process, we also see it during the work of the Mets Ghost Squad during the late 1940s. It was the strongest tool the police had at that time, and for a multitude of reasons, not necessarily in order to gain an outright conviction, and it is that which is being lost amongst the continual modern debate.

Because the identification would have been a step in the process, not the final location. This is bolstered by the fact that legal protocols and guidance were not strictly adhered to, a suggestion that the actual identifying of the suspect was secondary to its intended impact.

Monty

[pinkmoon]

Hi Jeff,all six parts of Barlow and watts are on YouTube now watched first episode before and found it very entertaining.