Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Jeff Leahy]

As I've suggested in Another Place, the photographer's studio in question came into its heyday during the 1920s. The girl in the photograph looks to be in her mid-20s so, if she is Matilda Kozminski, that would date the photo somewhere in the mid-to-late 1910s. This puts a gap of almost 30 years between the Ripper murders and the taking of that photograph - ample time for the Kozminski clan to rise from rags to riches.

Hi Gareth

Yes I'm now getting other suggestions for the Photo, Possibly Isaac with his children, trying to get a more accurate date on that dress and neckline you mention..

However it remains at least interesting that these photographs are now coming into the public domain and support the argument I have been putting forward for sometime that the Kozminski's were wealthier than previously believed. The pictures of Matilda and Morris also supporting this

I'm also interested in that Nose, very distinctive if someone was truly interested in creating a likeness of Aaron himself.

Its been argued else where (and reasonably in my view) that the kozminski's could not have afforded Holloway a middle class asylum, I'm increasing becoming more uncertain about this especially given the suggested link between the Police Seaside Home and the Holloway Brighton convalescent Home i.e. next door to each other.

Not quiet sure what Trevor is saying OKI about?

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

If it is Issac it is a remarkable new incite into the Kozminski family that holds out far more wealth than previously considered

As I've suggested in Another Place, the photographer's studio in question came into its heyday during the 1920s. The girl in the photograph looks to be in her mid-20s so, if she is Matilda Kozminski, that would date the photo somewhere in the mid-to-late 1910s. This puts a gap of almost 30 years between the Ripper murders and the taking of that photograph - ample time for the Kozminski clan to rise from rags to riches.

[Trevor Marriott]

I noted with interested in this mornings Daily Mail that a new picture of Issac has been published.

If this photograph is of Isaac surely it gives some credence to a Holloway connection. Surely the pretence of Aaron Kozminski as a poor Polish Jew eating from the gutter can know longer be 'argued in earnest by the Kosminski neah sayers..

If it is Issac it is a remarkable new incite into the Kozminski family that holds out far more wealth than previously considered

It also opens up questions of Shabbey gentile and the clothes that might have been available to Aaron, especially if he choose to change his appearance after the double event and the Batty Street incident. Could the man described by Hutchinson have been Kozminski?

Yours Jeff

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Jeff Leahy]

I noted with interested in this mornings Daily Mail that a new picture of Issac has been published.

If this photograph is of Isaac surely it gives some credence to a Holloway connection. Surely the pretence of Aaron Kozminski as a poor Polish Jew eating from the gutter can know longer be 'argued in earnest by the Kosminski neah sayers..

If it is Issac it is a remarkable new incite into the Kozminski family that holds out far more wealth than previously considered

It also opens up questions of Shabbey gentile and the clothes that might have been available to Aaron, especially if he choose to change his appearance after the double event and the Batty Street incident. Could the man described by Hutchinson have been Kozminski?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Colin.
Many have suggested that the PC referred to was either Watkins or Harvey, but there is no rational reason why either of these constables would omit that testimony from the inquest.
Secondly, that even if it were another PC entirely, that such a witness would not be summoned to the inquest, nor mentioned in any subsequent reports by McWilliam, is also questionable.
The suggestion fails at the first hurdle.

If the statement reflects any truth at all, it must be an indirect association which only surfaced later, after the inquest had terminated, perhaps some time after.

I believe it is possible that this PC only came forward after Kozminski was brought up as a suspect, and he was recognised by a beat constable who patrolled the streets near Mitre Square.
Sadly, we have no idea when Kozminski was first suspected.

Hi Jon

I think your City PC theory most interesting. As for when Kozminski first came to police attention then if Rob Houses Batty Street theory is correct we can estimate Sunday 14th October 1888.

Cox follows his suspect unto March 1889, and thats when MacNaughten says Kozminski goes into an asylum. (Private Asylum Surrey)

The ID however makes most sense if it happens shortly before Kozminski goes into Colney Hatch February 1891.

The only possible explanation for this apparent discrepancy in time, is we are looking at two completely different events that happen to the same suspect at different times.

MacNaughten does not know anything about Kozminski or what happened to him after March 1889 so I think his City PC witness has nothing to do with the later Seaside Home ID but is related to the earlier survey lance

Many thanks

Yours jeff

[Wickerman]

There may have been several local lunatics known to police across the East End, many of them watched at different times, just none of them named.

[pinkmoon]

If a policeman saw kosminski shortly before or after poor Catherine's murder and was known to this policeman as say the local loon it wouldn't take them to long to track him down and then what?I think the next step would be to put him under surveillance .

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Phil. Yes, indeed. Those are my feelings as well.

Perhaps he later recalled more about one of those two and it tallied with another description?

Cheers.
LC

[pinkmoon]

[QUOTE=Monty;343798]Mitre Court is seconds away from Kings Bench Walk.

One for the Druittists out there.

Monty
[/QUOTE
Could Druitt have been making his way to safety after nearly getting caught red handed the little love must have got the shock of his life when he was disturbed with Liz stride may be he thought it time to head to safety and on the way he bumped into Catherine and found her just to tempting.

[Monty]

Mitre Court is seconds away from Kings Bench Walk.

One for the Druittists out there.

Monty

[Harry D]

Don't forget that George R Sims said: "The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder."

[Wickerman]

But how would a beat constable be aware that Kosminski had been identified as a suspect? And surely any of the local beat constables must have seen a great many individuals around the Mitre Square area, but if wasn't near to the time that Eddowes was murdered what reason would they have for suspecting any of them, i.e. to the extent that they felt obliged to report the sightings?

Hi John.
If you recall, Eddowes was not seen alive by police in or near Mitre Square on the night of the murder, but, according to one source, the beat constables knew she frequented the area.
This is no different to how I interpret the PC reference for Kozminski.

Given that all the City Police records were destroyed in the blitz, we cannot know when Kozminski was first suspected, or whether his likeness was ever posted at the station.

[Paddy]

SAT, SEP 29, 1888
8:30pm

Police Constable Louis Robinson, 931City, was on duty in Aldgate High St when he noticed a small crowd standing around Catherine. PC Robinson tried to Stand Catherine up against the house, but she fell.

City Police Constable George Simmons assisted PC Robinson in taking Catherine to the Bishopsgate Police Station

The crowd around Catherine Eddowes would have become significant only after her murder. Maybe there was a man there, only identified later when he came under suspicion?

Just a thought....Pat.

[pinkmoon]

Yeah, but I have Homeless Frank near my house, and I see him every three days or so within a two mile radius dancing down the street singing about being Homeless Frank (he gave himself the name, I'm not that big of an ass). So how unusual is it to see the same homeless man somewhere in Whitechapel around the murders? Homeless Frank has been here for years.

I've got a homeless Vincent who sleeps on a bench near where I live i see him nearly ever day he dosnt dance about at all and always refuses money and offers of help very sad.I agree a local down and out or lunatic wouldn't stand out .I find homeless extremely offensive and with all the tax we pay in this country no one should sleep rough we will have to discuss that some other time though.

[Phil Carter]

The P. C. on a beat near Mitre Square.

Hello all,

It has occurred to me over the years..that the "P.C." referred to could in fact be a "D.C."..who was on a beat near Mitre Square..who did stop at least two people, either individually or together. That being D.C.Halse.

Sadly there is no information to back up Halse's claim at the inquest....neither written details nor confirmed by senior ofgicers nor reported in the newspapers with details. .but at least he is known through inquest testimony to have actually stopped someone. .and does fit the description of being on duty near Mitre Square on the evening in question.

No doubt this possibility may have occurred to others.


Phil