Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Abby Normal]

Well yes, but thats what I meant when using the word 'Blitz'. Remember that both endows and stride had reputations of being able to look after themselves. Poly and Annie were both worse for where and sic.

Kelly Appears to have put up a struggle and its possible the sheets were thrown over her.



We reconstructed te Stride murder in some detail, trying to figure what each witness saw taking in there various view points. Its probable that as Schwartz crossed the road he had a poor site of Stride as BSM blocks his POV of Stride. He pulls her into the street and she screams three times but not very loudly….she is pale and white which might suggest BSM used a ligature or simply grabbed her scarf pulling it tight and cutting off the blood supply so she fainted.

Its always been curious to me how anyone can be described as screaming NOT VERY LOUDLY its a contradiction and I wonder if this a a translation problem describing a muffled gurgle as described by Harriot Lilly?

Stride thus falls unconscious to the floor. The disturbed BSM simply grabs Stride by the neck, takes three paces into the yard, cuts her throat and leaves passing Fanny Mortimers door on the way.

Stride breifly regains consciousness and draws herself into the fetal position.

Also bear in mind if Kozninski is the killer Dutfeild yard is more personal as he lived here when young and still lives only moments around the corner



All we know about Mitre square is the man is stood talking to her. Lawende and Gang don't pay him much attention. We have no idea how long they had been there or what the conversation is.. So while i agree it seems different from the Berner street attack. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference. It fits with what we know about Jack

He walks around, talks to prostitutes they take him to a secluded places he jumps then suddenly and without warning. You can call it what you like but Jack is fairly consistent in my opinion.



Incompetent fool? Or a man experiencing Psychosis?

Yours Jeff

Neither. more than likely an inherently violent serial killer losing his temper.
(when faced with a woman who wont be tricked by his ruse).

[John G]

Whoever was committing these vile crimes was hardly a criminal mastermind let's face it wondering around at night with a knife attacking and murdering women is hardly the work of a genius .I not saying that our killer has to be an uneducated person from the lower class of society he might well have been from a higher social class well educated as well who knows but one thing it is impossible to try and say for sure if he was a local low class polish Jew or a visiting "Toff" based on how these poor women were killed we're are trying to make sense of these crimes and we can't because the only person these crimes made sense to obviously had some very serious mental health issues these crimes will always make no sense to us but they must have made perfect sense to Jack the ripper who ever he was.

Hello Pinkmoon,

My understanding is that the majority of serial killers are deemed to have anti-social personality disorders, I.e they are psychopathic. However, such disorders do not constitute mental illness. In fact, I believe a relatively small minority of serial killers are deemed to be mentally ill.

[pinkmoon]

Whoever was committing these vile crimes was hardly a criminal mastermind let's face it wondering around at night with a knife attacking and murdering women is hardly the work of a genius .I not saying that our killer has to be an uneducated person from the lower class of society he might well have been from a higher social class well educated as well who knows but one thing it is impossible to try and say for sure if he was a local low class polish Jew or a visiting "Toff" based on how these poor women were killed we're are trying to make sense of these crimes and we can't because the only person these crimes made sense to obviously had some very serious mental health issues these crimes will always make no sense to us but they must have made perfect sense to Jack the ripper who ever he was.

[Garry Wroe]

Ah as I suspected 'Samantic's'

Not semantics, an explanation as to how you managed to dig yourself into a deep, dark hole by using terminologies you clearly do not comprehend.

I'd imagine that Bill Beadle knows what the word Blitz means because he experienced it during the war…rather than cower behind some text book.

Am I to understand that you are now suggesting that the Ripper was a member of the German Luftwaffe?

However the FACT that jack the Ripper was a disorganised serial killer isn't changed to 'organised' because you impose a semantic argument or your own interpretation of the word blitz to a category you define as ruse.

It is not a fact that Jack the Ripper was a disorganized serial killer. It is a fact that certain members of the FBI defined him as such. The evidence, however, indicates an altogether different conclusion.

And whilst we are dealing with inaccuracies, please provide the evidence for the assertion that I have misinterpreted the term ‘blitz attack’, and that I further defined it as a ‘ruse’.

The crime remains what it is …

Crimes, not crime. This was a series of murders, not an isolated event.

… and expert Bill Beadle describes that as a blitz attack he was aware that the killer apparently spoke to Eddows and Chapman and given the last siting of Nichols almost certainly used the RUSE there.

Bill Beadle described the Ripper as a blitz attacker. He made no distinction between the individual crimes which constitute the Whitechapel Murders.

This requires no organisation just the ability to ask for business and go with the prostitute… He then used a blitz attack (NOte I'm using it in its commonly recognised form)

Let me remind you, then, that in attempting to justify your opinion of the Ripper as a blitz attacker, you cited the FBI’s Roy Hazelwood. You even stated that my definition of the blitz mode of attack was not that as specified by the FBI.

Remember?

The FBI’s crime analysts use a codified system for the analysis of offence-related behaviours in order that those behaviours can be accurately categorized and interpreted. Since the aim of this system is reliability it requires consistency and thus the application of precise definitions. When Roy Hazelwood refers to a blitz attack he does so from the perspective of the criminologist and therefore does not employ imprecise, colloquial terminology. He does not refer to a dog as a cat-like creature. Nor does he describe a bird as a bat with feathers. When using the term blitz attacker he does so because it describes a specific and discrete mode of behaviour. As I’ve already stated, a blitz attack in the criminological sense means a sudden, explosive and sustained outburst of violence initiated with little to no precrime interaction between the victim and perpetrator. More often than not under such circumstances first contact between the victim and assailant is the attack.

That is what Roy Hazelwood was referring to when stating his belief that the Ripper was a blitz attacker. No colloquialisms. No definitional elasticity. Just a straightforward descriptor as defined within the established FBI lexicon.

Again, you are the person who introduced the opinions of Roy Hazelwood. It was you who referred to him as an ‘expert’. But you’ve dug yourself into a hole owing to the fact that it has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt that, in criminological terms (the idiom used by crime analysts such as Roy Hazelwood) Jack the Ripper was not a blitz attacker.

Unbelievably, you are now disputing the opinion of the very person you introduced to support your contention of a blitz attacker Ripper. You are arguing against the criminological definition of a blitz attacker as accepted by crime analysts such as Roy Hazelwood, contending instead that it relates to something entirely unconnected with the analysis of violent crime. Since you’ve even made reference to German bombing raids I can only conclude with the words Stewart used in response to one of your earlier posts.

God help us.

[Jeff Leahy]

You're working from the wrong perspective, John, in that you are assessing the evidence in a logical and objective manner. Try the alternative. Pick a suspect, look to find any evidence which seemingly adds credence to your argument, reject any evidence that doesn't, and learn the art of hammering square pegs into round holes. It works a treat.

If you actually read the title of this thread it says 'Did the Seaside Home ID happen' As Kozminski is the only serious contender for this event it seems a fairly pertinent to consider Aaron Kozminski in this context, rather than run around shooting blanks into the air about other long since discarded suspects.

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,
Instead of vague terms such as "blitz attack", wouldn't it be more accurate to define JtR's MO as the ability to quickly overpower his victims without warning? I mean, Kelly might actually have been asleep at the time of the attack! That also seems to accord with the conclusions of Keppel et al. (2005).

Well yes, but thats what I meant when using the word 'Blitz'. Remember that both endows and stride had reputations of being able to look after themselves. Poly and Annie were both worse for where and sic.

Kelly Appears to have put up a struggle and its possible the sheets were thrown over her.

However, surely clumsy and highly disorganized BS man adopted a very different approach. To begin with he attacks Stride in front of two witnesses, after the briefest of conversations; I mean, he doesn't even seem to make a token attempt to persuade her to accompany him to a more suitable murder location. And, instead of quickly overpowering her, he attempts unsuccessfully to pull her into Berner Street. And to what purpose? I mean, surely he didn't think that murdering and mutilating a victim in the middle of a potentially busy, and reasonably well-lit, street in a residential area was a good idea! Ironically, he moves her away from the pitch-black darkness of Dutfield's Yard, which would surely be a far more suitable location- at least it was hidden from view of local residents, such as Fanny Mortimer.

We reconstructed te Stride murder in some detail, trying to figure what each witness saw taking in there various view points. Its probable that as Schwartz crossed the road he had a poor site of Stride as BSM blocks his POV of Stride. He pulls her into the street and she screams three times but not very loudly….she is pale and white which might suggest BSM used a ligature or simply grabbed her scarf pulling it tight and cutting off the blood supply so she fainted.

Its always been curious to me how anyone can be described as screaming NOT VERY LOUDLY its a contradiction and I wonder if this a a translation problem describing a muffled gurgle as described by Harriot Lilly?

Stride thus falls unconscious to the floor. The disturbed BSM simply grabs Stride by the neck, takes three paces into the yard, cuts her throat and leaves passing Fanny Mortimers door on the way.

Stride breifly regains consciousness and draws herself into the fetal position.

Also bear in mind if Kozninski is the killer Dutfeild yard is more personal as he lived here when young and still lives only moments around the corner

I mean, what an extreme contrast with Mitre Square, where Eddowes appears to have been silently lured to the darkest part of the Square, with her killer operating quickly and efficiently to immobilze, murder and mutilate his victim. Even the nightwatchman, working just a few yards away in a nearby building with the door open, saw her heard nothing.

All we know about Mitre square is the man is stood talking to her. Lawende and Gang don't pay him much attention. We have no idea how long they had been there or what the conversation is.. So while i agree it seems different from the Berner street attack. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference. It fits with what we know about Jack

He walks around, talks to prostitutes they take him to a secluded places he jumps then suddenly and without warning. You can call it what you like but Jack is fairly consistent in my opinion.

No, I think an incompetent fool like BS man was the very antithesis of JtR.

Incompetent fool? Or a man experiencing Psychosis?

Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

McWilliam's report as late as 19 October said no officer saw or heard anything prior to the discovery of the body. But what if Harvey relented sometime later and admitted he did see a man near the square (on Little Duke Street?), but not being accompanied by a woman, attached no significance to it?

Imagine if our killer had walked straight pass pc Harvey would Harvey at the time mention this he might have been afraid of ridicule or disciplinary action.

[Garry Wroe]

You're working from the wrong perspective, John, in that you are assessing the evidence in a logical and objective manner. Try the alternative. Pick a suspect, look to find any evidence which seemingly adds credence to your argument, reject any evidence that doesn't, and learn the art of hammering square pegs into round holes. It works a treat.

[John G]

Hello Jeff,

Instead of vague terms such as "blitz attack", wouldn't it be more accurate to define JtR's MO as the ability to quickly overpower his victims without warning? I mean, Kelly might actually have been asleep at the time of the attack! That also seems to accord with the conclusions of Keppel et al. (2005).

However, surely clumsy and highly disorganized BS man adopted a very different approach. To begin with he attacks Stride in front of two witnesses, after the briefest of conversations; I mean, he doesn't even seem to make a token attempt to persuade her to accompany him to a more suitable murder location. And, instead of quickly overpowering her, he attempts unsuccessfully to pull her into Berner Street. And to what purpose? I mean, surely he didn't think that murdering and mutilating a victim in the middle of a potentially busy, and reasonably well-lit, street in a residential area was a good idea! Ironically, he moves her away from the pitch-black darkness of Dutfield's Yard, which would surely be a far more suitable location- at least it was hidden from view of local residents, such as Fanny Mortimer.

After clumsily throwing her to the ground- by which point he still hasn't even drawn his knife, in preparation for a swift kill -he affords her the opportunity to cry out, not once but three times. And then, instead of acting quickly to silence his victim, he instead focuses his attention on Schwartz, with the shout of "Lipski", giving Stride a further opportunity to cry out or attempt an escape, which she didn't take.

I mean, what an extreme contrast with Mitre Square, where Eddowes appears to have been silently lured to the darkest part of the Square, with her killer operating quickly and efficiently to immobilze, murder and mutilate his victim. Even the nightwatchman, working just a few yards away in a nearby building with the door open, saw her heard nothing.

No, I think an incompetent fool like BS man was the very antithesis of JtR.

[Jeff Leahy]

It isn't claimed Kozminski was seen leaving the square, in fact it may only mean Kozminski was known to frequent the area around Mitre Square, and was seen close by, by a City P.C. at some time.
In that context, the earlier mention of the City P.C. is not so suspicious, "No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was a beat [sic] near Mitre Square)..."

An interesting observation which I had not considered before

Many thanks Jon

[Jeff Leahy]

You provided a quote in which Roy Hazelwood postulated that the Ripper was a disorganized offender who used a blitz-style mode of attack. You also cited Bill Beadle, who believes that the Ripper attacked in blitz-style. Clearly you were attempting to imply the link of disorganized blitz attacker to Kosminski the disorganized schizophrenic.

Ah as I suspected 'Samantic's'

I'd imagine that Bill Beadle knows what the word Blitz means because he experienced it during the war…rather than cower behind some text book.

Any basic google for the word BLITZ makes its mean quite clear: Information about blitz in the free online English dictionary and encyclopedia. the blitz, ... blitz - attack suddenly and without warning; "Hitler blitzed Poland"

However the FACT that jack the Ripper was a disorganised serial killer isn't changed to 'organised' because you impose a semantic argument or your own interpretation of the word blitz to a category you define as ruse.

The crime remains what it is, and expert Bill Beadle describes that as a blitz attack he was aware that the killer apparently spoke to Eddows and Chapman and given the last siting of Nichols almost certainly used the RUSE there.

However I'd imagine he'd use these words in there correct sense.

The flaw in this line of reasoning, however, is that the Ripper did not employ a blitz mode of attack. The fact that he was seen with Kate Eddowes some distance from the Mitre Square crime scene demonstrates as much. So too does the lack of noise at the other crime scenes coupled with an almost total absence of defence wounds on the known victims.

Your using a semantic argument to support something that never happened. You clearly don't know how prostitutes plyd there trade, and you'd do well to check out Don Rumblows explanation of how they operated. (He was a policemen in the area during the 1960's) They would stand in conspicuous places and then take there clients to somewhere secluded once they had done the 'business' as Don colloquially refers.

This requires no organisation just the ability to ask for business and go with the prostitute… He then used a blitz attack (NOte I'm using it in its commonly recognised form) If you have ever actually been to Church passage you'll know that the distance to the murder spot can be covered in seconds.

While nothing was heard at the Eddows murder at all the other KNOWN murder sites people did hear things you just choose to ignore the FACT.

The lack of defence wounds is of course consistent with a sudden and surprising BLITZ attack. It does however appear that Kelly may have struggled, this is because the killer wasn't behind her.

Then it would help matters no end if you were to understand the terminologies you adopt before using them.

I presume you struggle with the word Tomato, pronouncing the letter 'A' incorrectly

You’ve responded with similar irrelevant nonsense on a number of occasions now. If there’s a point being made I’m struggling to identify it.

URBAN FOX: Its a sly opportunistic animal, largely nocturnal, that wanders the streets at night scavenging. If it comes across a chicken coup and can get in, its well known for killing everything inside in a Blitz attack.

The point is that Jack the Ripper required nomore organisation than the average urban fox. If you accept that Smith and Tabram were early victims than changing his MO to carry a longer sharper knife, shows jack is able to learn and adjust. But you are still dealing with a killer that wanders the streets and picks up opportunity as it happens killing in a final and sudden attack much like hitlers bombers during the second world War.

Really? Even the demonstrably inaccurate assertion that the Ripper attacked in blitz mode?

Its been agreed that Jack had the ability to hold a basic conversation to do 'Business' (As clearly explained in Definitive Story) how ever when these woman took Jack to the murder location he used what everyone in the UK would call a Blitz attack, a sudden and over whelming fury much like hitlers bombers during world war two. That gave these women little or any chance of self defence, the attack being total violent and sudden. (Tomato)

I’m aware of what Swanson wrote with regard to Kosminski the suspect, Jeff. What I asked you to do was provide some element of official confirmation that Kosminski was identified as Jack the Ripper. Once again you have responded to a question that was never asked.[/FONT][/COLOR].

KOZMINSKI WAS THE SUSPECT

Yes we do. Major Smith stated that there was no evidence to implicate any Jew in the Ripper murders.

If you had been keep up with the thread you would have noted that this is not totally true as H L Adam claim Smith had in private told him something quiet different.

This was the same Major Smith, remember, who orchestrated the round-the-clock surveillance operation on Kosminski. Thus he knew Kosminski and was almost certainly aware that Anderson was attempting to implicate him in the murders.

Only MacNaughten and Swanson ever mention the name Kozminski. In the context that Swanson uses it 'Kozminski was the Suspect' it can be gleaned that Kozminski was also Anderson's suspect. Anderson said to Smith:

Dear Smith, Your volume of reminiscences is very interesting, especially where you explain how the police didn't capture Jack the Ripper. But take WARNING. We scotland Yard men have given some hard knocks as our time, and the people we dealt with have still a little kick in them. Keep to ripper stories, and the worse you can do will be to make Dr Forbes Winslow rush into print. Don't tell your other doings, as you may get into a mess like I did when I told the secret history of the Parnell Commission. Yours Truly R Anderson

As I stated previously, the difference in crime scene signature between Stride and the other victims was that of night and day. Were this a latter-day case no competent crime analyst would include Stride in the overall series. The evidence simply isn’t there. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Your not looking at a different signature your looking at the same signature which is simply incomplete. Presumably because Jack was spooked probably given the estimated times of death by Schwartz.

Double events in serial killers are not uncommon I recently gave a lecture describing a similar event the night Elizabeth Figg was murdered or you might check the Sally Anne Bowman murder.

I made no mention of a different knife.

No I thought Id cut you off before making a basic error

. I stated that the throat wound was different in character to the neck incisions inflicted upon Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Unlike those women Stride’s death was not instantaneous. Her skirts were not lifted to the waist. There was no abdominal mutilation. No sign of strangulation or suffocation. She was also found lying on her side rather than on her back as was the case with all of the known victims. On top of this she was almost certainly killed by Broad Shoulders, the aggressive drunk who assaulted her in full view of two onlookers. Not content with this he also verbally abused one or both of these witnesses.

STRIDE. The throat was deeply gashed: in the neck was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of her scarf; the incision commenced on the left side, 2 1/2" below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it, nearly severing the vessels on that side, cutting the windpipe completely in two, and terminating on the opposite side 1 1/2" below the angle of the right jaw, but without severing the vessels on that side.

What you are looking at is the same signature that is simply incomplete.

So not only did the Berner Street murder deviate entirely from the Ripper’s established crime scene signature, but the assault of a victim in the presence of witnesses was unique to the Stride murder

It does not deviate. Its the same signature simply incomplete. The killer had less time. Swanson MacNaughten and Anderson all believed Stride a ripper victim. Swanson was there on the ground and with time to investigate, so i'll simply stick with an EXPERT.

Even more damning for the Stride-as-Ripper-victim argument is the near-certainty that Eddowes was seen with her killer a short time later. Lawende and party were not racially abused by Eddowes’ companion, and nor did they observe anything in the way of drunken or menacing behaviour. In fact the conduct of this man was so markedly different from that exhibited by Stride’s assailant that it becomes difficult to imagine that they were one and the same individual.

By there own admission they paid the man little attention and would not recognise him again.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]All of which raises some interesting questions if Kosminski really was identified by Schwartz at the Seaside Home

KOZMINSKI WAS THE SUSPECT

Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

Hi PM.
I do recall a number similar to that, 26 or 27 or so, members in the Club who were checked & questioned by police. I don't recall them all being in the Yard though.

I think it was stated that the list had disappeared but I'm sure it was people who were in the yard when the police arrived.Anyway if we ignore the list there is no doubt that if Kosminski was wandering round at all hours he would have been attracted to the murder sites purely due to the commotion maybe a policeman recognised him on maybe more than one occasion .

[Wickerman]

I remember reading that there is meant to be a list made at the time of strides murder of people who were found in the yard when the police arrived on the scene it contained 27 names it has been suggested that if Kosminski was the local Looney wondering round at all hours then he might have been attracted by the commotion so he might have found his way to the yard and managed to get his name on the list.

Hi PM.
I do recall a number similar to that, 26 or 27 or so, members in the Club who were checked & questioned by police. I don't recall them all being in the Yard though.

[pinkmoon]

The fact Macnaghten dropped the reference does suggest he recognised his error.

The City PC is mentioned twice in the Aberconway version.
Macnaghten writes about Kozminski:
"This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square."

It isn't claimed Kozminski was seen leaving the square, in fact it may only mean Kozminski was known to frequent the area around Mitre Square, and was seen close by, by a City P.C. at some time.
In that context, the earlier mention of the City P.C. is not so suspicious, "No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was a beat [sic] near Mitre Square)..."

Macnaghten mentioned the City P.C. in connection with Kozminski because he has been identified as a suspect. Not that his being seen in that area was meant to imply on the night of the murder.

Regardless, this reference was removed, so why do we spend time talking about a reference that was removed?

I remember reading that there is meant to be a list made at the time of strides murder of people who were found in the yard when the police arrived on the scene it contained 27 names it has been suggested that if Kosminski was the local Looney wondering round at all hours then he might have been attracted by the commotion so he might have found his way to the yard and managed to get his name on the list.

[Wickerman]

The fact Macnaghten dropped the reference does suggest he recognised his error.

The City PC is mentioned twice in the Aberconway version.
Macnaghten writes about Kozminski:
"This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square."

It isn't claimed Kozminski was seen leaving the square, in fact it may only mean Kozminski was known to frequent the area around Mitre Square, and was seen close by, by a City P.C. at some time.
In that context, the earlier mention of the City P.C. is not so suspicious, "No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was a beat [sic] near Mitre Square)..."

Macnaghten mentioned the City P.C. in connection with Kozminski because he has been identified as a suspect. Not that his being seen in that area was meant to imply on the night of the murder.

Regardless, this reference was removed, so why do we spend time talking about a reference that was removed?