William Grant Grainger and censorship

[Cogidubnus]

You're putting words in my mouth Debs!

But eye colour surely isn't one of the more usual innacuracies is it?

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

But that's a pretty different eye-colour...hmmm

All the best

Dave

hmmm...musn't be him then.

[Cogidubnus]

But that's a pretty different eye-colour...hmmm

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

I've just been checking the descriptions in the prison records compared to the habitual criminal register descriptions, posted by Chris earlier in the thread.
They match in almost everything apart from eye colour. In the HC registers Grant/Grainger is said to have blue eyes but in the Irish prison records they are described as Hazel.
Apart from that, his age (b c 1860 but varies over each prison a year on either side as well as 1860), height of 5ft 9.5 in, brown hair , sallow complexion, occupation of sailor and ships fireman (both given) are exactly the same in both sets of records and there's a link to Grant Grainger research done by Chris with addresses of Ballyhooley rd and Barrackton given in the prison records. Both have tattoos as distinguishing features ( Prison records says tattooed hands and sears and tumour on neck. )

[Debra A]

Hi Chris,

I was thinking more that the police were aware of him being in prison but it wasn't mentioned in the PMG article

There was a suggestion of a cover-up of his "antecedents" so there's a possibility these arrests Deb has uncovered were known but not disclosed in 1895

Was he under the name Grant/Grainger or Green in 1888/89 do you know Deb?

He was under 'William Granger or Green' (that's how it's written in the records), in 1888, Nemo.

[Debra A]

Before/during/after the murder of Emma Smith?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

19th to 22nd April 1888

[Tom_Wescott]

So far, it looks like he was in prison for 4 days only in early April 1888.

Before/during/after the murder of Emma Smith?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Nemo]

Hi Chris,

I was thinking more that the police were aware of him being in prison but it wasn't mentioned in the PMG article

There was a suggestion of a cover-up of his "antecedents" so there's a possibility these arrests Deb has uncovered were known but not disclosed in 1895

Was he under the name Grant/Grainger or Green in 1888/89 do you know Deb?

[Debra A]

But the Pall Mall Gazette article did print that very detailed account of his movements that had been traced between 1888 and 1891, including time spent in the militia, workhouses and asylum. I can't imagine they would have omitted prison terms - unless they were deemed too early to be relevant (the account starts in May 1888). So it will certainly be interesting to see when in 1888 he was in prison.

So far, it looks like he was in prison for 4 days only in early April 1888. There are a couple of entries in the index I looked at for 1888 but I think one is just referencing the actual index in the register itself. There appears to be an entry for 1890 though, if so, that was missed in the PMG article.

[Chris]

Maybe they did find out and dismissed him as the Ripper without telling anyone

I think the phrase used was something like he couldn't be linked to the East End at the time of the Ripper murders, not that he had a good alibi because he was in prison, which might be the same thing in press language

But the Pall Mall Gazette article did print that very detailed account of his movements that had been traced between 1888 and 1891, including time spent in the militia, workhouses and asylum. I can't imagine they would have omitted prison terms - unless they were deemed too early to be relevant (the account starts in May 1888). So it will certainly be interesting to see when in 1888 he was in prison.

[Nemo]

Great work Deb

Maybe they did find out and dismissed him as the Ripper without telling anyone

I think the phrase used was something like he couldn't be linked to the East End at the time of the Ripper murders, not that he had a good alibi because he was in prison, which might be the same thing in press language

The sentences between 1902 and later sound interesting

He does sound like a habitual drunk and one with a lot of police contact

It would be nice to find press reference to his Ripper candidacy at the time of any of those arrests Deb

Grainger mentioned that George Kebbell, his 1895 solicitor, had continually brought up in the press that he was the Ripper - "in recent years", him speaking in 1910 IIRC

I don't think I've seen any such article after 1902 until 1910 when George Kebbell commented on Anderson's Polish Jew suspect

Forbes Winslow's description of Grainger in 1910 appears to represent a somewhat hard done by civilised man - named Grant. The evidence says otherwise which is not unusual where LFW is concerned, nor Grainger whose only quoted words appear to be a tissue of lies

The new alias is interesting in that aspect and provides a possible name under which he received medical training

I also notice the names Green and Grant are quite Anglican (English) whereas Grainger has an Irish (military) background...

[Chris]

The interesting thing is that William Green alias Grainger was in prison in 87 for assault and also some time in 88, although an exact date isn't given in the records index.

That sounds very interesting. You seem to have found some evidence which the Metropolitan Police, with the assistance of the Irish authorities, failed to discover in 1895!

[Debra A]

Previous convictions and another alias

I've just been going through some Irish prison records and came across quite a lot of entries which I believe relate to William Grant/Grainger.

The first records of imprisonment date from the late 1870s, several in the early and later 80s (none in the middle), and then nothing until 1902 and more right up to 1909. The majority of the convictions appear to be for being drunk and disorderly or drunk on the streets.

From the DOB and addresses given in the Irish prison records index and the work posted by Chris Phillips that includes Grant/Grainger's know addresses it is possible to link several records to Grainger including ones for a William Green or Grainger and also ones for William Grant or Grainger. The interesting thing is that William Green alias Grainger was in prison in 87 for assault and also some time in 88, although an exact date isn't given in the records index.
Perhaps this is where he really was at the time of the murders in 88 and not in the workhouse in Ireland?

I am currently trying to sort through the index and perhaps see if I can access the original records somewhere. I'll post a summary of the convictions when I've sorted through the indexes and seen which are duplicate mentions.

[Nemo]

Thanks for posting that Simon

I've been looking into this recently and I find the "hot potato" theory more than believable

Grant himself mentions that his lawyer, George Kebbell, appeared in the press a number of times in previous years accusing him of being the Ripper (speaking in 1910) but these articles are a little elusive

I suspect some articles appeared around 1902 when he was released but could be any time between 1895 and 1910

If George Kebbell is truthful and correct in his statements, as I believe he is, then there appears to be evidence of a conspiracy here, at least one of silence over the incarceration of the Ripper if not something a little deeper

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Here's an interesting take on the William Grant [Grainger] case.

It's from an article entitled "Is the CID a Failure?" by Halboro Denham, London Society, Volume 73, January to June 1898

"Many theories have been broached on this head, but of all we have come across, only one appears to have a solid basis, and that is, that Jack the Ripper is, for the time being, locked up in an asylum at prison. In this connection we may mention a curious circumstance which happened between two and three years ago, and which an article published in the pages of London Society was almost the first to draw attention to. One prominent evening paper did, indeed, discuss the matter for a day or two, but, for some reason or other, dropped it as quickly as Scotland Yard appears to have done.

The facts are thus:

"In the small hours of the morning, a ship's fireman, who gave the name of Grant, was caught red-handed just after stabbing a woman in a Spitalfields alley. The victim recovered after three weeks in the London Hospital, and gave evidence in due course at the Central Criminal Court against her assailant. The nature of the offence indicated the possibility of the prisoner being the long sought Ripper. The hour, the place and the woman, were three factors strengthening the supposition that the man in the dock was the miscreant who had so successfully eluded detection for so many butcheries. The fact, moreover, that he was a ship's fireman was startling. Grant was an assumed name—the real one was known to the authorities but never publicly divulged, and it was said that his parents were in a respectable position in the south of Ireland. The Recorder, in his summing up, severely blamed the faulty framing of the indictment, which prevented him from sentencing the accused to more than ten years penal servitude!

"Now it would be interesting to know why this ruffian was indicted for "feloniously wounding" instead of attempted murder. Who was responsible for this huge legal blunder, and why was it made? What were the real antecedents of the so-called Grant? Why was the case dropped by those who did comment upon it for a day or two as if it were a red-hot potato?

"These are questions which in the public interest one would like to see answered. It only remains to add that the past year or so has added one of the blackest periods to the annals of unsolved crime, deeds of slaughter at Windsor, Plaistow, Walthamstow, and Bethnal Green rivalling one another in horror, and equally baffling to the Criminal Investigation Department."

Regards,

Simon