So what if the Ripper was Jewish?

[Barnaby]

Two things:

1. We're talking about a densely populated Jewish area that is not at all large. One thing that is very common to serial killers, in fact common to human existence is the simple principle that you don't **** where you eat, so to speak. They might bring victims home, but they don't leave a corpse across the street from their house.

But you know that this isn't true, right? There are many cases showing the opposite, Gein, Gacy, Dahmer just off the top of my head.

One might argue that these are exceptions. And I'd agree that most "with it" killers would want to put some distance between themselves and their crimes, but how far? They didn't have cars in those days. A few blocks away might suffice. And killing outside the club you (and many others) hang out at isn't exactly your house.

[Scott Nelson]

Thank you, Colin (aka Septic "Blue"). Very much appreciated.

[Colin Roberts]

Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union - 1888 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

…

I am quite confident that 1888 Whitechapel was not "predominately Jewish".

Incidentally, I am just as confident that the 1888 immediate vicinity of the killing field of 'Jack the Ripper' …


Accumulation of Probability Distribution (Elliptical): Murder-Site Mean-Center, to Extent of Fifty Percent Accumulation (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2010
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2011

… - an area within which I perceive a 50% probability that our perpetrator happened to reside - was not "predominately Jewish".

[Colin Roberts]

This map is from 1890, so we can assume a similar (if slightly less) proportion at the time of the murders.

The map's 1899 vintage has been discussed numerous times on both Casebook and JTR Forums. While it would appear to be dated 1890, this characterization was surely corrupted during pdf conversion.

The 'Moving Here' website on which the map has been archived confirms as much:

"Map showing by colour the proportion of the Jewish population of East London, street by street, in 1899 - Map showing by colour the proportion of the Jewish population to other residents of East London, street by street, in 1899. The streets with the highest Jewish population are coloured dark blue and those with the lowest are coloured dark red, and it illustrates clearly the predominantly Jewish population at the time of the areas of Whitechapel, Spitalfields and Mile End in particular. It was reproduced in 'The Jew in London' by C Russell and H S Lewis, published in 1901. The maker, George Arkell, compiled the map from information gathered by the London School Board through its various visitors."

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.movinghere.org.uk/search/catalogue.asp?sequence=5&resourcetypeID=2&recordID=56004

Numerous topographical features that are depicted by the map, such as the Boundary Estate in the westernmost reaches of Bethnal Green and the Brady Street Dwellings immediately north of Buck's Row, didn't actually come into existence until the late 1890's. And we should all be acutely aware of the fact that the Rothschild Buildings notwithstanding, the Flower & Dean Street, George Street and Thrawl Street area of 1888 would surely have been colored a stunning shade of fire engine red, as opposed to the dark shade of navy blue that is seen in the map.

---

I posted the following some three or four years ago, on both Casebook and JTR Forums:



Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union - 1888 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

In accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891 ...

Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate (Green): 1,449
- The Old Artillery Ground (Aqua): 2,138
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields (Blue): 22,859
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Orange): 11,303
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories') (Yellow): 301
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Red): 32,326
----- {Portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; the County of London, 1889-1965: 32,284}
----- {Portion within the City of London, -1900: 42}
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London (Orange): 933
----- {The Liberty of the Tower: n/a}
----- {The Precinct of Old Tower Without: 65}
----- {The Tower: 868}
- The Precinct of St. Katharine (Blue): 182
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (Green): 2,971
----- {Portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889; the County of London, 1889-1965: 2,971}

The portion of the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel that was situated within the City of London (becoming part of St. Botolph without Aldgate, in 1900), was a component of the Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union (until 1900); but, was not a component of the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets. It is, however, included here, for the purposes of this analysis.

- Total Population (1891 Census): 74,462

---------

Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union

Census of England & Wales, 1891:
Enumerated Persons, Not Born within the United Kingdom

- Along With -

My Estimates (Percentages and Quantities, from Each 'Country-of-Origin' Sub-Set):
Enumerated Persons, Not Born within the United Kingdom, Likely to Have Been Jewish



Each entry in the "Est. % Jewish" column is a very 'general' estimate of the percentage of its respective "Country of Origin" subset that was Jewish. In order to ensure a very 'general' characteristic in the case of each estimate, and in order to minimize 'bias', the estimates are given in increments of 1/2 cubed, i.e. 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8; i.e. 12.50%.

The estimates are designed to err on the side of over-estimation, so that I should have good reason to proclaim that the Whitechapel Registration District, in 1888, was 'no more than xx.xx% Jewish'.

The two 'Sub-Total' and 'Total' percentage estimates, it should be noted, are resultant of all of the other percentage estimates. It is understandable, therefore, that they are not given in increments of 12.50%.

---------

The 'Total' percentage estimate, which in this case suggests that 93.41% of all enumerated immigrants living in the Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union, in accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891, were Jewish; is surely an over-estimate.

In any case, that equates to 16,778 Jewish immigrants comprising 22.53% of the Whitechapel Registration District's total population of 74,462, in accordance with the 1891 census.

I will propose an estimation that London's Jewish immigrants represented ~50.00% of its overall Jewish population in 1891, and suggest that this representation was uniform throughout each of the Registration Districts in the Metropolis; Whitechapel being no exception.

The reasoning behind this estimation is very simple, but I will have to explain it later.

For the time being, I will simply make note of the fact that I am estimating that 33,556 Jews comprised 45.06% of the Whitechapel Registration District's total population of 74,462, in accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1891.

This is in all likelihood an over-estimate!

Even if I propose a margin-of-error of 10.00%, i.e. 4.506 percentage points; the estimate remains below fifty percent: 49.57%.

---------

It should also be noted that while the census data that provides the basis for my estimates was gathered in April 1891, the period in which we are interested occurred some two-and-a-half years earlier, in the Autumn of 1888. Surely, the number of Jews living in the Whitechapel Registration District in April 1891 was greater than that of October 1888!

I am quite confident that 1888 Whitechapel was not "predominately Jewish".

[Observer]

If we're looking for a local with an intimate knowledge of the neighbourhood, then the chances of it being a Jew are higher than not.

It doesn't work like that Harry.

I never said the Ripper MUST be a Jew. I said there's more evidence in favour of a Jew than not. I wish you'd get this right.

Come on Harry, you are convinced Levy was the Ripper.

Unfortunately, Anderson & co. took that little secret to their graves. Doesn't change the fact that they had good reason for believing the Ripper was a Jew. Unless you think Anderson was lying about the identification?

If the Swanson marginalia is genuine then Kosminski seems to be Anderson's Jewish suspect. Someone informed Macnaghten Kosminski was a suspect, so yes, we have a Jewish suspect. Any evidence suggesting Kosminski was the Ripper? In my opinion no.

"Foreign" and "dark complexion", these were just euphemisms for Jewish ethnicity.

Really? So how would one describe a swarthy foreigner who was not a Jew?

Provide me with a better suspect than Levy, then we'll talk. Can't sit on the fence all day, Observer.

There aren't any decent suspects Harry. I'll come off the fence when one is presented. How about that?

Unfortunately, Anderson & co. took that little secret to their graves. Doesn't change the fact that they had good reason for believing the Ripper was a Jew. Unless you think Anderson was lying about the identification?

If the Swanson marginalia is genuine then Kosminski seems to be Anderson's Jewish suspect. Someone informed Macnaghten Kosminski was a suspect, so yes, we have a Jewish suspect. Any evidence suggesting Kosminski was the Ripper? In my opinion no.

Provide me with a better suspect than Levy, then we'll talk. Can't sit on the fence all day, Observer.

There aren't any decent suspects Harry. I'll come off the fence when one is presented. How about that?

This was not intended to be a Jacob Levy thread. Patrick S asked for my opinion on the Ripper, and I gave it to him. My original intent was to explore the possibility of the police covering up for a Jewish suspect, based on their handling of the GSG and 'antisemitism' in general. If you wish to continue the debate in the proper place, then feel free.

Anderson was top of the tree, if his witness had been willing to testify against Kosminski would they have tried him and hung him? No, I don't think the police would have covered up a Jewish suspect. If they had enough evidence against any single person they would have tried, and hung him.

[Harry D]

Just because there were more Jews living in the murder zone than gentiles it doesn't follow that JTR was a Jew.

If we're looking for a local with an intimate knowledge of the neighbourhood, then the chances of it being a Jew are higher than not.

Conjecture? And it's not conjecture to assume that because two of the victims were murdered near to Jewish clubs the Ripper must have been a Jew?

I never said the Ripper MUST be a Jew. I said there's more evidence in favour of a Jew than not. I wish you'd get this right.

And who would that witness be Harry? Lawende? Schwartz?

Unfortunately, Anderson & co. took that little secret to their graves. Doesn't change the fact that they had good reason for believing the Ripper was a Jew. Unless you think Anderson was lying about the identification?

I'd leave Hutchinson's archetypal Jewish suspect out of this if I were you. Mr's Long did not mention a Jew, merely a foreigner. I do not know where you obtained the information that P C Smith described the man he saw with Stride as a Jew. As far as I know, Smith did not mention the mans ethnicity at inquest.

"Foreign" and "dark complexion", these were just euphemisms for Jewish ethnicity.

It's no where near the truth that Jacob Levy was Jack The Ripper Harry. No evidence against him whatsoever

Provide me with a better suspect than Levy, then we'll talk. Can't sit on the fence all day, Observer.

This was not intended to be a Jacob Levy thread. Patrick S asked for my opinion on the Ripper, and I gave it to him. My original intent was to explore the possibility of the police covering up for a Jewish suspect, based on their handling of the GSG and 'antisemitism' in general. If you wish to continue the debate in the proper place, then feel free.

[Observer]

It's not an agenda if it's true.

It's no where near the truth that Jacob Levy was Jack The Ripper Harry. No evidence against him whatsoever

[Observer]

Study the map I posted, the densest Jewish neighbourhoods correspond to the murder sites. Of course there were gentiles that would've known the area, too, but based on the locale the probability weighs very much in the Jewish favour.

No need to study the map Harry, the criteria you employed to formulate the idea that the Ripper was a Jew is fundamentally flawed. Just because there were more Jews living in the murder zone than gentiles it doesn't follow that JTR was a Jew.

Conjecture

Conjecture? And it's not conjecture to assume that because two of the victims were murdered near to Jewish clubs the Ripper must have been a Jew?

What of them?

Using the above criteria, I could easily say that because Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly were not murdered near to Jewish clubs their killer was not Jewish. Silly reasoning of course.

Apart from Anderson saying that the Ripper was positively identified by the "only person to get a good look [at him]?"

And who would that witness be Harry? Lawende? Schwartz?

Conjecture (again).

Conjecture? Lets just recap what you posted. The Ripper was a Jew because he didn't target Jewesses; and you accuse me of conjecture.

Hutchinson, Elizabeth Long, PC Smith.

I'd leave Hutchinson's archetypal Jewish suspect out of this if I were you. Mr's Long did not mention a Jew, merely a foreigner. I do not know where you obtained the information that P C Smith described the man he saw with Stride as a Jew. As far as I know, Smith did not mention the mans ethnicity at inquest.

All I have presented are the facts. There is a Jewish connection that runs right through the Whitechapel murders. Therefore the argument "the Ripper probably wasn't Jewish" seems completely baseless to me and at odds with the evidence available. Inconclusive evidence, granted, but evidence to be taken into proper account nonetheless.

There is no reliable data available Harry which points to the Ripper being a Jew. I know you like this word, conjecture, plenty of that on show in your musings regarding the Ripper being a Jew.

[Harry D]

I agree with virtually every you say J6. You see, you and I do not have an agenda, Harry erroneously believes Jacob Levy, a Jew, to be the Ripper, I believe it's clouding his judgement.

Regards

Observer

It's not an agenda if it's true.

[Observer]

Would agree with you observer. there is not really any smoking gun that incriminates a Jew. there's a few witness sightings of jewish-looking men which are certainly interesting, but were any of them Jack? the sighting of the foreign-looking man with Annie Chapman could be a red herring - Chapman could have been killed earlier, in darkness, round about the time Richardson said he was sat on the top step with a knife (not suggesting anything, im sure he was innocent). Most of the murders were in the worst slum areas - exactly where you would expect a serial killer of prostitutes to hunt for victims. i believe the Yorkshire Ripper did the same thing. therefore maybe you shouldnt place too much emphasis on the proximity of Jewish buildings and people to the crime scenes.

also, with all due respect to the police at the time - because they really had a mammoth task on their hands - they could have been wrong about many things, including their top suspect who was Jewish. they made errors - understandably - and had suspects that we can confidently rule out today.

also in my opinion - which i concede could be wrong - Israel Schwartz may very well have seen the Whitechapel Murderer attacking a victim - and this guy shouted out "lipski", apparently as an insult to Schwartz, who looked heavily Jewish.

So I think Jack could have been a gentile every bit as much as he could have been a Jew.

I agree with virtually every you say J6. You see, you and I do not have an agenda, Harry erroneously believes Jacob Levy, a Jew, to be the Ripper, I believe it's clouding his judgement.

Regards

Observer

[Natasha]

If the killer was jewish, we should then consider Israel Schwartz a suspect.

The fact that Liz Stride was found clutching a packet of cachous, I find that strange, because if she was being attacked by a man who Schwartz saw, then why would she still be holding the sweets? If she was struggling and trying to get free of an attacker wouldn't she have dropped everything she was holding and would have tried to put up a fight?

I think the ripper (although I'm not really sure that all the murders were connected) would attack his victims blitz style/sudden, this would explain a lack of screaming etc and perhaps the reason why the sweets were still in her hand, so having said that Israel Schwartz's account doesn't make sense. No one heard Stride screaming.

[Abby Normal]

We know from the GSG incident that the police were trying to keep a lid on the antisemitism that was brewing within Whitechapel. A piece of evidence that might not necessarily have been linked to the murders was destroyed to prevent a riot. This begs the question.... What if the Ripper had been proven to be a Jew? Wouldn't they have wanted to cover this up? Therefore, the Ripper gets carted off to the madhouse, and the case is closed (unofficially), since they never "caught" the man responsible.

Hi Harry
I think that if they had a valid suspect, especially one that they thought they could charge and try, then I don't think they would try to do it quietly. On the contrary I think it would be very public, there was enormous amount of pressure and criticism on the police to catch the killer.

Now was the ripper actually a Jew? I doubt it unless the slim possibility it was koz. There are two pieces of evidence that point to a gentile killer-the GSG and the BS mans shout of lipski. That's how I see it anyway.

[Errata]

Two things:

1. We're talking about a densely populated Jewish area that is not at all large. One thing that is very common to serial killers, in fact common to human existence is the simple principle that you don't **** where you eat, so to speak. They might bring victims home, but they don't leave a corpse across the street from their house. They also don't leave a body where they intend to hunt again. So familiarity with the area I agree is key to these murders, but not living a few doors down from the murder. Simple survival.

2. Secondly, I'm beginning to wonder what everyone's definition of "Jewish" is, because I don't think we're all speaking the same language. First of all, please don't say "Jewess". There is no such thing and it has the added benefit of creeping me out. If someone called me a Jewess I would feel very unsafe. Also there are several behaviors that are contrary to being Jewish. Murder being one, prostitution is another one... One cannot practice the religion and practice certain other acts. So that lets out someone who is a faithful Jew, goes to synagogue, obeys dietary laws, obeys dress laws, etc. Then there are non practicing Jews, who were raised to be faithful Jews but in adulthood have strayed. I myself fall in this category. I identify as Jewish. It's what I am. But I don't practice the faith. I have issues. Many do. But I self identify as Jewish, and so despite my lack of practice I count as Jewish. And then there are those who were raised by non practicing Jews, converts, atheists, etc. who were never practicing Jews, may have actually been practicing Christians, but their recent ancestors were practicing Jews. Benjamin Disraeli is a good example of this. He was not Jewish. His parents were not Jewish. They had converted. But they had been Jewish. Jews did not consider him Jewish. Some of his parliamentary colleagues did.

Anyone who falls in the first category could not have been the murderer without being insane. Anyone who falls in the second category could have been the murderer, but would find little protection in the community. Anyone in the third category could have been the killer, but then they aren't Jews according to Jews, and any other religious person who recognizes conversion as a tenet of faith. Like Christianity is pretty big on it. So I think we need to be clear what we are talking about. If you think it was some thug raised Anglican by Jewish parents who converted to Christianity, that's something different than a guy fresh from the Pale who obeys dietary laws etc.

No one talks about him being Christian. And I don't know if it is assumed that if he is not Jewish he is therefor obviously Christian, or if it is assumed that the guy who did this wasn't really a Christian even if he said he was because Christians don't do this. Or if it's because people think Judaism is a race and Christianity is not, so we are talking about race here and not religion. So I think we should be clear. Because I can argue against religion while others are arguing for race and we will never meet.

[Natasha]

Of Course t is possible that either of them wrote it, it's possible that Warren wrote it, s there any evidence to support that possibility NO.

Is there evidence that at the time the police considered it possible that Dear old Jacky wrote it, yes some.

Is is a fact that Jack wrote it no.

But then again I like evidence a great deal more than I like possibilities that are not supported by evidence.

Hi Gut

As you have gathered I do put forward alot of ideas that are based on possibilities, I don't think there is one person, who doesn't consider possibilities. After all that is how a detective does his job. We are dealing with a case that is over 100 years old, we have a very limited amount of info that relates to this case.

The only way to present our findings is to see how these possibilities fit with, for example time frame, motive, reasons, etc, we can only make assumptions based on weather it fits the pattern of events.

All we can do is look at the statements etc from the witness s, look at the history of the suspects (now that is very difficult, as we don't have info like that readily available). I know there are a lot of people on here that have gone to great lengths to gather info on this case and I applaud their effort.

[GUT]

Hi All

I just thought, could it be possible that either Stride or Eddowes wrote the GSG prior to their deaths?

Could that have been one of a few reasons why the killer killed them?

I have suggested that maybe not all the killings were connected.

What do you lot think?

Of Course t is possible that either of them wrote it, it's possible that Warren wrote it, s there any evidence to support that possibility NO.

Is there evidence that at the time the police considered it possible that Dear old Jacky wrote it, yes some.

Is is a fact that Jack wrote it no.

But then again I like evidence a great deal more than I like possibilities that are not supported by evidence.