So what if the Ripper was Jewish?

[J6123]

Would agree with you observer. there is not really any smoking gun that incriminates a Jew. there's a few witness sightings of jewish-looking men which are certainly interesting, but were any of them Jack? the sighting of the foreign-looking man with Annie Chapman could be a red herring - Chapman could have been killed earlier, in darkness, round about the time Richardson said he was sat on the top step with a knife (not suggesting anything, im sure he was innocent). Most of the murders were in the worst slum areas - exactly where you would expect a serial killer of prostitutes to hunt for victims. i believe the Yorkshire Ripper did the same thing. therefore maybe you shouldnt place too much emphasis on the proximity of Jewish buildings and people to the crime scenes.

also, with all due respect to the police at the time - because they really had a mammoth task on their hands - they could have been wrong about many things, including their top suspect who was Jewish. they made errors - understandably - and had suspects that we can confidently rule out today.

also in my opinion - which i concede could be wrong - Israel Schwartz may very well have seen the Whitechapel Murderer attacking a victim - and this guy shouted out "lipski", apparently as an insult to Schwartz, who looked heavily Jewish.

So I think Jack could have been a gentile every bit as much as he could have been a Jew.

[J6123]

In fact if you believe that Stride was a Ripper victim, and that the Ripper wrote the graffito, and the Schwartz's testimony is legit, then we have a very strong case for a gentile killer. Problem is we can't be 100% certain of any of those things!

[Natasha]

Hi All

I just thought, could it be possible that either Stride or Eddowes wrote the GSG prior to their deaths?

Could that have been one of a few reasons why the killer killed them?

I have suggested that maybe not all the killings were connected.

What do you lot think?

[J6123]

Hello Natasha,

Stride or Eddowes could have written the GSG? I have never heard that before....

I think the Stride and Eddowes murders were connected - too big a coincidence in time, proximity, victimology and modus operandi.

my apologies for straying massively off topic.

x

[Harry D]

1) Why is that? There were also thousands of gentiles living in that area, equally at home with the back streets, and alleyways.

Study the map I posted, the densest Jewish neighbourhoods correspond to the murder sites. Of course there were gentiles that would've known the area, too, but based on the locale the probability weighs very much in the Jewish favour.

2)Coincidence

Conjecture.

Also, what of the three murder's which did not take place near to Jewish social clubs?

What of them?

3)What evidence did those police officer's have which would suggest the Ripper was Jewish?

Apart from Anderson saying that the Ripper was positively identified by the "only person to get a good look [at him]?"

4)The Jewesses (if there were any) who were prostitutes at that time got lucky

Conjecture (again).

5)Which witnesses would they be Harry?

Hutchinson, Elizabeth Long, PC Smith.

All I have presented are the facts. There is a Jewish connection that runs right through the Whitechapel murders. Therefore the argument "the Ripper probably wasn't Jewish" seems completely baseless to me and at odds with the evidence available. Inconclusive evidence, granted, but evidence to be taken into proper account nonetheless.

[GUT]

Hi All

I just thought, could it be possible that either Stride or Eddowes wrote the GSG prior to their deaths?

Could that have been one of a few reasons why the killer killed them?

I have suggested that maybe not all the killings were connected.

What do you lot think?

Of Course t is possible that either of them wrote it, it's possible that Warren wrote it, s there any evidence to support that possibility NO.

Is there evidence that at the time the police considered it possible that Dear old Jacky wrote it, yes some.

Is is a fact that Jack wrote it no.

But then again I like evidence a great deal more than I like possibilities that are not supported by evidence.

[Natasha]

Of Course t is possible that either of them wrote it, it's possible that Warren wrote it, s there any evidence to support that possibility NO.

Is there evidence that at the time the police considered it possible that Dear old Jacky wrote it, yes some.

Is is a fact that Jack wrote it no.

But then again I like evidence a great deal more than I like possibilities that are not supported by evidence.

Hi Gut

As you have gathered I do put forward alot of ideas that are based on possibilities, I don't think there is one person, who doesn't consider possibilities. After all that is how a detective does his job. We are dealing with a case that is over 100 years old, we have a very limited amount of info that relates to this case.

The only way to present our findings is to see how these possibilities fit with, for example time frame, motive, reasons, etc, we can only make assumptions based on weather it fits the pattern of events.

All we can do is look at the statements etc from the witness s, look at the history of the suspects (now that is very difficult, as we don't have info like that readily available). I know there are a lot of people on here that have gone to great lengths to gather info on this case and I applaud their effort.

[Errata]

Two things:

1. We're talking about a densely populated Jewish area that is not at all large. One thing that is very common to serial killers, in fact common to human existence is the simple principle that you don't **** where you eat, so to speak. They might bring victims home, but they don't leave a corpse across the street from their house. They also don't leave a body where they intend to hunt again. So familiarity with the area I agree is key to these murders, but not living a few doors down from the murder. Simple survival.

2. Secondly, I'm beginning to wonder what everyone's definition of "Jewish" is, because I don't think we're all speaking the same language. First of all, please don't say "Jewess". There is no such thing and it has the added benefit of creeping me out. If someone called me a Jewess I would feel very unsafe. Also there are several behaviors that are contrary to being Jewish. Murder being one, prostitution is another one... One cannot practice the religion and practice certain other acts. So that lets out someone who is a faithful Jew, goes to synagogue, obeys dietary laws, obeys dress laws, etc. Then there are non practicing Jews, who were raised to be faithful Jews but in adulthood have strayed. I myself fall in this category. I identify as Jewish. It's what I am. But I don't practice the faith. I have issues. Many do. But I self identify as Jewish, and so despite my lack of practice I count as Jewish. And then there are those who were raised by non practicing Jews, converts, atheists, etc. who were never practicing Jews, may have actually been practicing Christians, but their recent ancestors were practicing Jews. Benjamin Disraeli is a good example of this. He was not Jewish. His parents were not Jewish. They had converted. But they had been Jewish. Jews did not consider him Jewish. Some of his parliamentary colleagues did.

Anyone who falls in the first category could not have been the murderer without being insane. Anyone who falls in the second category could have been the murderer, but would find little protection in the community. Anyone in the third category could have been the killer, but then they aren't Jews according to Jews, and any other religious person who recognizes conversion as a tenet of faith. Like Christianity is pretty big on it. So I think we need to be clear what we are talking about. If you think it was some thug raised Anglican by Jewish parents who converted to Christianity, that's something different than a guy fresh from the Pale who obeys dietary laws etc.

No one talks about him being Christian. And I don't know if it is assumed that if he is not Jewish he is therefor obviously Christian, or if it is assumed that the guy who did this wasn't really a Christian even if he said he was because Christians don't do this. Or if it's because people think Judaism is a race and Christianity is not, so we are talking about race here and not religion. So I think we should be clear. Because I can argue against religion while others are arguing for race and we will never meet.

[Abby Normal]

We know from the GSG incident that the police were trying to keep a lid on the antisemitism that was brewing within Whitechapel. A piece of evidence that might not necessarily have been linked to the murders was destroyed to prevent a riot. This begs the question.... What if the Ripper had been proven to be a Jew? Wouldn't they have wanted to cover this up? Therefore, the Ripper gets carted off to the madhouse, and the case is closed (unofficially), since they never "caught" the man responsible.

Hi Harry
I think that if they had a valid suspect, especially one that they thought they could charge and try, then I don't think they would try to do it quietly. On the contrary I think it would be very public, there was enormous amount of pressure and criticism on the police to catch the killer.

Now was the ripper actually a Jew? I doubt it unless the slim possibility it was koz. There are two pieces of evidence that point to a gentile killer-the GSG and the BS mans shout of lipski. That's how I see it anyway.

[Natasha]

If the killer was jewish, we should then consider Israel Schwartz a suspect.

The fact that Liz Stride was found clutching a packet of cachous, I find that strange, because if she was being attacked by a man who Schwartz saw, then why would she still be holding the sweets? If she was struggling and trying to get free of an attacker wouldn't she have dropped everything she was holding and would have tried to put up a fight?

I think the ripper (although I'm not really sure that all the murders were connected) would attack his victims blitz style/sudden, this would explain a lack of screaming etc and perhaps the reason why the sweets were still in her hand, so having said that Israel Schwartz's account doesn't make sense. No one heard Stride screaming.

[Observer]

Would agree with you observer. there is not really any smoking gun that incriminates a Jew. there's a few witness sightings of jewish-looking men which are certainly interesting, but were any of them Jack? the sighting of the foreign-looking man with Annie Chapman could be a red herring - Chapman could have been killed earlier, in darkness, round about the time Richardson said he was sat on the top step with a knife (not suggesting anything, im sure he was innocent). Most of the murders were in the worst slum areas - exactly where you would expect a serial killer of prostitutes to hunt for victims. i believe the Yorkshire Ripper did the same thing. therefore maybe you shouldnt place too much emphasis on the proximity of Jewish buildings and people to the crime scenes.

also, with all due respect to the police at the time - because they really had a mammoth task on their hands - they could have been wrong about many things, including their top suspect who was Jewish. they made errors - understandably - and had suspects that we can confidently rule out today.

also in my opinion - which i concede could be wrong - Israel Schwartz may very well have seen the Whitechapel Murderer attacking a victim - and this guy shouted out "lipski", apparently as an insult to Schwartz, who looked heavily Jewish.

So I think Jack could have been a gentile every bit as much as he could have been a Jew.

I agree with virtually every you say J6. You see, you and I do not have an agenda, Harry erroneously believes Jacob Levy, a Jew, to be the Ripper, I believe it's clouding his judgement.

Regards

Observer

[Harry D]

I agree with virtually every you say J6. You see, you and I do not have an agenda, Harry erroneously believes Jacob Levy, a Jew, to be the Ripper, I believe it's clouding his judgement.

Regards

Observer

It's not an agenda if it's true.

[Observer]

Study the map I posted, the densest Jewish neighbourhoods correspond to the murder sites. Of course there were gentiles that would've known the area, too, but based on the locale the probability weighs very much in the Jewish favour.

No need to study the map Harry, the criteria you employed to formulate the idea that the Ripper was a Jew is fundamentally flawed. Just because there were more Jews living in the murder zone than gentiles it doesn't follow that JTR was a Jew.

Conjecture

Conjecture? And it's not conjecture to assume that because two of the victims were murdered near to Jewish clubs the Ripper must have been a Jew?

What of them?

Using the above criteria, I could easily say that because Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly were not murdered near to Jewish clubs their killer was not Jewish. Silly reasoning of course.

Apart from Anderson saying that the Ripper was positively identified by the "only person to get a good look [at him]?"

And who would that witness be Harry? Lawende? Schwartz?

Conjecture (again).

Conjecture? Lets just recap what you posted. The Ripper was a Jew because he didn't target Jewesses; and you accuse me of conjecture.

Hutchinson, Elizabeth Long, PC Smith.

I'd leave Hutchinson's archetypal Jewish suspect out of this if I were you. Mr's Long did not mention a Jew, merely a foreigner. I do not know where you obtained the information that P C Smith described the man he saw with Stride as a Jew. As far as I know, Smith did not mention the mans ethnicity at inquest.

All I have presented are the facts. There is a Jewish connection that runs right through the Whitechapel murders. Therefore the argument "the Ripper probably wasn't Jewish" seems completely baseless to me and at odds with the evidence available. Inconclusive evidence, granted, but evidence to be taken into proper account nonetheless.

There is no reliable data available Harry which points to the Ripper being a Jew. I know you like this word, conjecture, plenty of that on show in your musings regarding the Ripper being a Jew.

[Observer]

It's not an agenda if it's true.

It's no where near the truth that Jacob Levy was Jack The Ripper Harry. No evidence against him whatsoever

[Harry D]

Just because there were more Jews living in the murder zone than gentiles it doesn't follow that JTR was a Jew.

If we're looking for a local with an intimate knowledge of the neighbourhood, then the chances of it being a Jew are higher than not.

Conjecture? And it's not conjecture to assume that because two of the victims were murdered near to Jewish clubs the Ripper must have been a Jew?

I never said the Ripper MUST be a Jew. I said there's more evidence in favour of a Jew than not. I wish you'd get this right.

And who would that witness be Harry? Lawende? Schwartz?

Unfortunately, Anderson & co. took that little secret to their graves. Doesn't change the fact that they had good reason for believing the Ripper was a Jew. Unless you think Anderson was lying about the identification?

I'd leave Hutchinson's archetypal Jewish suspect out of this if I were you. Mr's Long did not mention a Jew, merely a foreigner. I do not know where you obtained the information that P C Smith described the man he saw with Stride as a Jew. As far as I know, Smith did not mention the mans ethnicity at inquest.

"Foreign" and "dark complexion", these were just euphemisms for Jewish ethnicity.

It's no where near the truth that Jacob Levy was Jack The Ripper Harry. No evidence against him whatsoever

Provide me with a better suspect than Levy, then we'll talk. Can't sit on the fence all day, Observer.

This was not intended to be a Jacob Levy thread. Patrick S asked for my opinion on the Ripper, and I gave it to him. My original intent was to explore the possibility of the police covering up for a Jewish suspect, based on their handling of the GSG and 'antisemitism' in general. If you wish to continue the debate in the proper place, then feel free.