So what if the Ripper was Jewish?

[Harry D]

The idea of Levy as a suspect was first put forward because Joseph Hyam Levy declined to identify anyone, and people thought that was odd since his companion did identify a man they had seen. So people thought about why JH Levy would not identify someone, and the idea that it was a family member was put forward. After that there was a Levy identified who could have made a credible suspect if the stars align correctly. A Levy became a favorite suspect.

And the stars may have aligned. For all I know Levy was the killer. But I can't take someone's word for that based on a delicate balance of variable that may or may not have existed. There's a lot of "ifs" that have to be satisfied. And we don't know that they were.

Hello Errata,

And what is wrong with that, per se? It looks like pretty solid sleuthing to me. If you were a detective working on the case and one of the witnesses appeared to be hiding something, wouldn't you check out his background and see if there were any family or friends who might be linked to the murders? Even if you object to the line of enquiry that brought us to a Levy, there's still the small matter of Jacob ticking a lot of boxes as a Ripper suspect than the vast majority of names out there.

[tji]

Hi Jason

Im reminded of the last decade in Rotherham when it comes to Jack the Ripper and the Jewish question. The link may be flippant on my part, but I suspect the possibility of some co-ordinated police reaction to a strong Jewish suspect. Both cases include racial tension and a large immigrant population. Racial tensions that the police were obviously concerned with in the LVP.

Yes, I think the Lipski case the year before really caused the same effect so Police would have been treading carefully.

Oh I forgot, Levy recognised his cousin Jacob, so yes you're probably correct, the suspect was five three.

I normally am




Hi Scott

Hey, dude. Leave the sarcasm to me.

I am sure your crown is safe




Hi Observer

Hey, dude, I didn't know you had the exclusive in sarcasm here in the fantasy factory.

Pretty harsh. So, ok then who is your suspect?

Tracy

[Errata]

Silly me I thought it was years of research and fact finding that put forward Jacob as a suspect. Obviously I must have just assumed that.

So tell me what facts do you think a viable suspect should have since you obviously are so against the ones put forward -

what age should he be?
what ethnicity?
what job?
what area of home and work?
what mental illness?
what prior record?
what possible motive for the killing of prostitutes?
what possible stressor may he have had?
what knowledge of the area?
what family members link to the area of the apron? (and gsg if you believe it to be linked)
what link to a possible witness should they have?
what links to the area should they have?

No suspect put forward can give you proof positive, so we are going back over as a community if this is what we are looking at when discussing suspects.

If the best answer that you can give after the case being cold for 120 year in which we have no physical evidence, barely any photograph, no living witness, information ruined, lost, stolen is 'you have no physical evidence' or it is all circumstantial then I will take that all day long.


Tracy

The idea of Levy as a suspect was first put forward because Joseph Hyam Levy declined to identify anyone, and people thought that was odd since his companion did identify a man they had seen. So people thought about why JH Levy would not identify someone, and the idea that it was a family member was put forward. After that there was a Levy identified who could have made a credible suspect if the stars align correctly. A Levy became a favorite suspect.

And the stars may have aligned. For all I know Levy was the killer. But I can't take someone's word for that based on a delicate balance of variable that may or may not have existed. There's a lot of "ifs" that have to be satisfied. And we don't know that they were.

I'm not ruling anyone out. Or in for that matter. But I'm not going to accept a suspect that comes about essentially by magic. There's some story about John Dee warning people that rats carried plague, which made him the first to put that together. But he arrived at that conclusion because both rats and disease are under the auspex of the moon or some such bullshit. It turns out he was right, but the way he got to the right answer was so wrong that it might as well have not been the right answer for all the validity it had. There were thousands if not hundreds of thousands of men whose individual stories could have made them a good Ripper for one reason or another. We could take some poor shmuck with a domineering mother, hypervigilant works as a butcher. Technically that guy could make a Ripper. But the fact that he used to cry when people were mean to him and he had no thumbs might not be preserved in living memory, so things that would exclude him are lost. There are suspects that make a good story. There are very few good suspects.

And Tracy, I'm excluding you from this, but the case against Levy is so thin (because it is contingent on so many variables) that I find myself constantly wondering if he would be considered such a good suspect if he was not Jewish. If he was C of E, would people be arguing that he was the Ripper. And I get that there are reasons that people think a Jewish Ripper is likely. And by all means they should look at Jewish suspects. But if you wouldn't bat an eye at a guy if he was Christian, then he's a bad suspect. Even if he is Jewish.

[Observer]

Hey, dude, I didn't know you had the exclusive in sarcasm here in the fantasy factory.

[Scott Nelson]

Hey, dude. Leave the sarcasm to me.

[Observer]

Absolutely. Of course, Joe Levy's behaviour during the days following the murder was very very mysterious, very suspicious indeed. He knew more than he was letting on! You know, when he learnt of Eddowes murder he must have realised that his relative was Jack The Ripper. Lord knows what horrors he went through when he learnt what his cousin had done to Mary Kelly. What a secret to take to the grave poor man.

[Scott Nelson]

If Levy recognized a relative who was Jacob, then yes, he was probably closer to 5 ft 3 in.

[Observer]

Oh I forgot, Levy recognised his cousin Jacob, so yes you're probably correct, the suspect was five three.

[Observer]

Joseph Hyam Levy stated that the man he saw was 3" taller then Eddoews......she was 5ft.

Tracy

Joseph Lawende said he was five six, or five seven, and his was the description put out by the police. So who do we believe?

[jason_c]

Im reminded of the last decade in Rotherham when it comes to Jack the Ripper and the Jewish question. The link may be flippant on my part, but I suspect the possibility of some co-ordinated police reaction to a strong Jewish suspect. Both cases include racial tension and a large immigrant population. Racial tensions that the police were obviously concerned with in the LVP.

[Scott Nelson]

Cox and sagar never said the man they watched was Jewish....

True, but Cox's story strongly suggests the suspect he watched was Jewish.

[tji]

Yes. Jack the Ripper could have been Jewish. But he was statistically more likely to have been Christian, and based on what we know (which is almost nothing) he could have been Sufi. The only thing we have that tilts the scales more towards a Jewish suspect is Anderson's book. A book that has three wrong statements for every correct one. There is no evidence pointing towards a Jewish suspect.

Charles Booth recorded how in 1888 -

"The newcomers have gradually replaced the English population in whole districts…Formerly in Whitechapel, Commercial Street roughly divided the Jewish haunts of Petticoat Lane and Goulston Street from the rougher English quarter lying in the East [this would have been the area of Wentworth Street and Brick Lane]. Now the Jews have flowed across the line; Hanbury Street, Fashion Street, Pelham Street, Booth Street, Old Montague Street, and many streets and lanes and alleys have fallen before them; they fill whole blocks of model dwellings; they have introduced new trades as well as new habits and they live and crowd together and work and meet their fate independent of the great stream of London life surging around them."

Now maybe the whole of the East End wasn't Jewish, but it seems that the area of whitechapel has a huge influx of Jewish people - in 1888 at least, this owuld make it predominantly Jewish.

So either he was or he wasn't.

Erm yeah I think we all can work that one out!

Which is pretty much how Levy as a suspect came about, and also through a series of assumptions that have no facts backing them up.

Good post. Especially the last two sentences.

Silly me I thought it was years of research and fact finding that put forward Jacob as a suspect. Obviously I must have just assumed that.

So tell me what facts do you think a viable suspect should have since you obviously are so against the ones put forward -

what age should he be?
what ethnicity?
what job?
what area of home and work?
what mental illness?
what prior record?
what possible motive for the killing of prostitutes?
what possible stressor may he have had?
what knowledge of the area?
what family members link to the area of the apron? (and gsg if you believe it to be linked)
what link to a possible witness should they have?
what links to the area should they have?

No suspect put forward can give you proof positive, so we are going back over as a community if this is what we are looking at when discussing suspects.

If the best answer that you can give after the case being cold for 120 year in which we have no physical evidence, barely any photograph, no living witness, information ruined, lost, stolen is 'you have no physical evidence' or it is all circumstantial then I will take that all day long.

Hi Observer

Joseph Hyam Levy stated that the man he saw was 3" taller then Eddoews......she was 5ft.

Tracy

[Abby Normal]

Yes James Kelly was a person of interest at the time. But not in the sense that Sadler, Pizer, or Ludwig was a person of interest 'at the time' that we can read about in transcripts of newspapers or police reports of the time. Which he have available thanks to the work of others.

It wasn't until research was conducted in the 1990's the fact was uncovered that detectives went looking for James Kelly. Research. I thought you knew that. So yes I'm still perplexed when you ask has anyone ever thought of researching gentile madmen. Which in the case of Kelly was done thoroughly twenty years ago.



That's your opinion of people's research. Okay. I'm not here to change your mind.

Roy

Hi Roy
My intention was not to disparage anyone's research, quite the contrary. A lot of great info has come from the research. It's when you try to tag someone with a suspect label that I have issues with, when they have absolutely nothing that ties them to the case.

[Roy Corduroy]

... and Kelly was a person of interest at the time.

Yes James Kelly was a person of interest at the time. But not in the sense that Sadler, Pizer, or Ludwig was a person of interest 'at the time' that we can read about in transcripts of newspapers or police reports of the time. Which he have available thanks to the work of others.

It wasn't until research was conducted in the 1990's the fact was uncovered that detectives went looking for James Kelly. Research. I thought you knew that. So yes I'm still perplexed when you ask has anyone ever thought of researching gentile madmen. Which in the case of Kelly was done thoroughly twenty years ago.

It's a wild goose chase. Or crazy Jew chase.

That's your opinion of people's research. Okay. I'm not here to change your mind.

Roy

[Abby Normal]

I thought the impetus to research Jacob Levy was the recollections of City of London Police detectives Henry Cox and Robert Sagar. They watched a man. Jacob Levy in some ways fits their scenario. It could have been him.

Apropos of that, Scott Nelson wrote an article entitled 'The Butchers Row Suspect' which can be read here on Casebook, although he suggested a different possibility.

I consider the Jewish suspect to be a valid avenue of research. But it's only one area. I'm still a little perplexed by Abby's comments on the other thread - 'why haven't researchers looked at any gentile madmen' when in fact James Kelly had an entire book written about him.

Roy

Hi Roy
Cox and sagar never said the man they watched was Jewish and Kelly was a person of interest at the time.

Anderson's Jew was Kosminsky.

Not:
Cohen
Kaminsky
Butchers row suspect
Hyam hyams
Jacob levy

It's a wild goose chase. Or crazy Jew chase. Enough. Show me any relation of a person to the actual case then we can call them a potential suspect.