Profiling Questionnaire: "Cold Blooded or Not" "Criminal or Not"

[seanr]

I guess what I don't understand is, if there were an international organised criminal classs involved in the international jewellery trade, sex trafficking and sex work and forgery, with a strong presence in Aldgate/ Whitechapel and Spitalfields, for what possible reason would they start killing street women at night?

Rhetorical question really, but with refererence to the criminal career of Joseph Silver and his associates.

[Paddy Goose]

My suspect is James Maybrick.

I am being confused with Suspect Authors. I’m not a suspect author. I guess the confusion is due to the existence of a diary.

Thank you Lombro2. You are not confused with Suspect Authors by me. I only know you as a poster here on the site.

The minute you posted "cold-blooded" from the "criminal classes" I thought of Joe Silver. He was profiled as the Ripper once. I would say my suspects are firstly an unknown local and in far far distant second place it's a tie between James Kelly and Joe Silver. And that could just be for the # 2's I find each of their life stories intriguing and enjoyed the books written about them by the two respective Suspect Authors James Tully and Charles van Onselen.

Having cleared the air we can move on if you please. You stated

I too believe JtR's cohorts took care of him.

You are referring to Maybrick's cohorts since he is your suspect.

The only question now is what kind of cohorts would take care of the Ripper on the side and then sweep the whole thing under the rug.

Your question indicates you do not know the exact identity of his, the Ripper, Maybrick's cohorts. My only guess is Maybrick's cohorts were other businessmen, possibly someone from his club. Sorry I can't be of assistance there. It didn't exactly get swept under the rug, if that was Maybrick's cohorts goal but instead his widow was charged with his murder. The cohorts had to breathe a sigh of relief. At least it wasn't them in the dock.

But again I thank you for stating your suspect. I tagged along on the Diary thread for a little while recently and I honestly did not know if you were for it or against it, your posts being so cryptically obtuse I would need my own Enigma Machine to decode them.



I wonder if I could get one of these on E-bay and tinker with it myself. For next time, just in case.

[Lombro2]

My suspect is James Maybrick.

I am being confused with Suspect Authors. I’m not a suspect author. I guess the confusion is due to the existence of a diary.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There you are, Hurley,



But you did not answer my direct question to you Herlock Sholmes.



Please answer at your convenience. Or not.

Sorry Paddy, I missed your question to me in the ps on post #17:

“Are you suggesting this is a "stealth" Diary thread by Lombro2? You actually broached that idea in your post #3 of this thread. Because quite honestly, I have followed briefly on the recent Diary threads and Lombro2's posts there are to me quite esoteric and don't give me a clue of his opinion pro or con. Whereas this thread seemed more accessible to me so I engaged. Again, clarification please.”

After reading the initial post, and considering how closely it followed on after the diary thread, I couldn’t help but make connection based on previous readings of Lombro’s posts. So my interpretation of what he was getting at in post #1 was:

If someone considered the killer a ‘cold blooded’ member of the criminal classes why would he embark on a campaign of murdering women when the rest of the criminal fraternity would either kill him or attempt to kill him? To me, this is a clear attempt to ‘indicate’ that the killer wouldn’t have been a member of the criminal classes; and so someone like Maybrick.

(I’m unsure of the relevance of the phrase ‘cold blooded though.’ Surely it means a lacking in conscience and this pertains to every serial killer and so is hardly rare trait.)

Lombro’s point three fails of course as it appears to assume that a ‘criminal class’ killer wouldn’t have been have announced his guilt to the rest of the criminal classes therefore putting his own life at risk. Clearly this wouldn’t have been the case so the point makes no sense.

So yes, I do believe that Lombro’s began this thread as yet another way of trying to point a finger at Maybrick which does smack of desperation.

[Paddy Goose]

There you are, Hurley,

... people promoting suspects on the grounds of their presence in a forged document. ...

But you did not answer my direct question to you Herlock Sholmes.

Are you suggesting this is a "stealth" Diary thread by Lombro2?

Please answer at your convenience. Or not.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I find it’s better to talk to people like me who have a suspect, or at least a working suspect. They are more relaxed if they’re confident in their solution. They deal with the human side of things versus “evidentiary” and don’t usually bother helping the Ripper gauntlet.

They are usually more biased. They have a theory which they then feel honourable-bound to defend at all costs. Dealing with the ‘human’ side rather than the ‘evidentiary’ allows you to sideline or ignore unfavourable evidence which saves the trouble of having to invent excuses for it. It allows reason and common sense to be substituted by meaningless waffle and half-baked theorising. Evidence is the only thing that matters. We can assess what is true or false if we can or failing that, likely or unlikely. Only in that way can we assess a suspects worth. If we don’t take this approach then we end up with people promoting suspects on the grounds of their presence in a forged document. People that shouldn’t be considered a suspect in the first place.

[Paddy Goose]

Thanks for the reply Lombro2,

I’m a suspect theorist so I work based on a suspect theory. ...
I find it’s better to talk to people like me who have a suspect, or at least a working suspect. They are more relaxed if they’re confident in their solution.

Sounds good to me. So if you don't mind me asking, who exactly is your working suspect, please?

[Lombro2]

I’m a suspect theorist so I work based on a suspect theory. Everything then is 20-20 hindsight that way or reverse-engineering. I just don’t shove my opinion down people’s throats or nitpick over 15 minutes versus 40 minutes in what I think could be a confession.

I find it’s better to talk to people like me who have a suspect, or at least a working suspect. They are more relaxed if they’re confident in their solution. They deal with the human side of things versus “evidentiary” and don’t usually bother helping the Ripper gauntlet.

The criminal community has a vested interest in making themselves look good much more than the establishment who already are assumed to be good. So criminals would have to have a good reason to sweep their wayward brother under the rug to the point that no one hears of it. I’m still trying to think of one.

[Paddy Goose]

I too believe JtR's cohorts took care of him.

Interesting and thanks you, Lombro2.

Your Questionnaire got me thinking off in several directions.

p:s to Sherlock. I am confused. This is not a Diary thread. Are you suggesting this is a "stealth" Diary thread by Lombro2? You actually broached that idea in your post #3 of this thread. Because quite honestly, I have followed briefly on the recent Diary threads and Lombro2's posts there are to me quite esoteric and don't give me a clue of his opinion pro or con. Whereas this thread seemed more accessible to me so I engaged. Again, clarification please.

Or maybe I should ask Lombro2 outright - is this a "stealth" Diary thread? If so, I've been had. What a sucker I am. Not half as bad as the drunk bloke tossed in the river, though, whew.

But if this is a stealth Diary thread, it means you Lombro2 believe James Maybrick's "cohorts" poisoned him, resulting in his death.

But Lombro2 Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease tell me this is not a stealth Diary thread as Hurley suggests. Please - I'm Wishing and Hopin' just like the beautiful Dusty did live on TV!

[Herlock Sholmes]

According to the diary ‘Maybrick’ found a willing victim (Eddowes) less than 15 minutes after killing Stride. So, from his own pen (actually from the forger’s but hey…) he ran into Catherine Eddowes at around 1.10. Naturally this point is ignored or some dismissive excuse is made. It’s a wonder that there’s enough space under the carpet to allow more ‘points against’ to be brushed under it.

[Lombro2]

To me cold-blooded is the same as organized or psychopathic. He may not think about the life of the victim but he does think about his actions. I'm not saying Silver was incapable of cold-bloodedness. Anyone can learn to be cold-blooded. It's just that some are more precocious at it than others.

You also provided an interesting scenario with the fellow criminals and/or common cohorts killing JtR when they find out what he did. I too believe JtR's cohorts took care of him. The only question now is what kind of cohorts would take care of the Ripper on the side and then sweep the whole thing under the rug.

The closest example I can think off off-hand of what you are suggesting is the Hispanic community taking care of Richard Ramirez.

"One more rip and we're done with you, Woody!... Okay we're done!"

[Paddy Goose]

Good afternoon Lombro2

Why would he do that? Did he think killing Nordic prostitutes was the equivalent of killing a man so he chose them?

...you asked me in reference to Joe Silver. Being cold-blooded he didn't "think" about it, he acted. Why? He lost it. Without thinking, without reasoning why. To himself or anyone else. And he obviously wasn't afraid of his criminal cohorts.

You did say cold-blooded.

Putting that aside, however, your initial post raises new possibilities, and by the way rules out Joe Silver because it takes a different direction altogether.

Let's say yes, as you suggest Jack the Ripper was a cold-blooded criminal and committed these murders even though, in the back of his mind, this particular chap, for whatever reason, was afraid of what his fellow criminals might do if they knew. And sure enough, they found out! His worst fears came true. So they decided to silence him, luring him to a pub down by the docks, plowing him with strong drink until he became highly inebriated, then tossing his drunk arse in the river. That's why today we don't know who Jack the Ripper is and we never will. Because those miscreants made him disappear from terra firma forever. To infinity and beyond!

[seanr]

There are many reasons for mutilations that don't involve heated frenzy. So it's best to look past that and stick with convention as in punters not pimps.

Kate Eddowes was in a police station until about 45 minutes before she was found murdered. Rather than returning home at that time of night, she headed back towards the Houndsditch area where she had spent most of that day, in the company of people (or person) who could afford to buy her a drink.

The 'criminal classes' of the day would typically be involved in a number of trades between stolen goods, running spielers, trading in illicit gems and robbery.

It's odd that the Post Office close to Mitre Square was robbed that very weekend.

There are certainly reasons for mutilations that don't involve heated frenzy, in fact given the short time scale, a heated frenzy is almost impossible to countenance, and the act must have been carried out in some haste was maintaining the presence of mind to make an escape.

[Lombro2]

Do you differentiate targeting a woman you don't know and targeting a woman you do know?

To me, you could have exactly the same weapon and MO and the profiles would be entirely different. There might be the odd exception or cross-over.

A cold-blooded killer can get heated up eventually with escalation but that doesn't mean it didn't start out cold-blooded. There are many reasons for mutilations that don't involve heated frenzy. So it's best to look past that and stick with convention as in punters not pimps.

[seanr]

The "criminal classes," whether Victorian or modern, are full of violence against women.

This. Victorian 'criminal classes' (career criminals) could arguably be even more misogynist, given a society where domestic violence was hardly remarked upon and even some of the most famous women in the land would be victims of it, than those who exploited vulnerable women for profit (the so-called white slave trade, which Joseph Silver and his associates were linked through London, Paris, South Africa and Buenos Aires) would have been capable of the most disgusting attitudes towards women.

Just imagine if such gangs were operating in Whitechapel and Aldgate in 1888. You'd surely have to think 'there's something to this'.