Rating The Suspects.

[Fiver]

Didn't know that Fiver. Thanks for that info.

Cheers John

You're welcome.

This tells what happens before anything got to the cats meat men.

[John Wheat]

Firstly - why not the same person with no surgical training who wasn’t following a prescribed surgical method? A surgeon when removing an organ would presumably use the same method every time unless he had to use a different method for medical reasons. A maniac who killed women in the streets wasn’t working to a textbook.

Secondly, why is this relevant to the thread?

Hi Herlock. I think it highly likely that Jack was a maniac that killed women on the streets. Its worth noting many serial killers begin by killing animals so Jack may have done this. He might have started out by mutilating animals. It's not relevant to the thread.

Cheers John

[Herlock Sholmes]

Firstly - why not the same person with no surgical training who wasn’t following a prescribed surgical method? A surgeon when removing an organ would presumably use the same method every time unless he had to use a different method for medical reasons. A maniac who killed women in the streets wasn’t working to a textbook.

Secondly, why is this relevant to the thread?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

In Eddowes' case he's now had the Chapman experience, so there's always the notion that he simply takes the same again - repeats himself. It is the kidney that's the new behaviour, so that could be happenstance, or if he realised he botched the uterus, he grabbed something else. I suspect, but obviously cannot know, that JtR had anatomical knowledge, so by happenstance I just mean he may have decided at that point to grab something and chose the kidney (although it is impossible to rule out the idea that he had no clue about anatomy and just felt something and cut it out to see what it was, but that seems less probable to me). I don't think, prior to the murder, he specifically thought "Must get a kidney this time", rather what he took was what he decided upon at the moment. Taking body parts, like organs, as trophies is not uncommon in mutilators. There are some who target specific body parts, like eyes, or feet, due to a fetish or some other obsession, but I don't think JtR was doing that.

- Jeff

But if you are suggesting the same killer for all the murders and that killer removed the organs at the crime scenes how do you explain two different methods of removing the uterus from both Chapman and Eddowes? and in Chapmans case in addition to the uterus itself being removed the fallopian tubes which were still attached to the uterus were also taken

Surely the killer was not that medically trained to the point he was able to hone his skills to make two different removals of the same organ!!!!!!!!!!!!

It all points to two different persons removing the organs from the bodies at the two different mortuaries before the postmortems were carried out

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

But if the killer as a secondary thought took a uterus from Chapman would he then go on to take the same organ from Eddowes also as a secondary thought I very much doubt it.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

In Eddowes' case he's now had the Chapman experience, so there's always the notion that he simply takes the same again - repeats himself. It is the kidney that's the new behaviour, so that could be happenstance, or if he realised he botched the uterus, he grabbed something else. I suspect, but obviously cannot know, that JtR had anatomical knowledge, so by happenstance I just mean he may have decided at that point to grab something and chose the kidney (although it is impossible to rule out the idea that he had no clue about anatomy and just felt something and cut it out to see what it was, but that seems less probable to me). I don't think, prior to the murder, he specifically thought "Must get a kidney this time", rather what he took was what he decided upon at the moment. Taking body parts, like organs, as trophies is not uncommon in mutilators. There are some who target specific body parts, like eyes, or feet, due to a fetish or some other obsession, but I don't think JtR was doing that.

- Jeff

[John Wheat]

Cats meat men bought boiled meat from slaughterers. It had already been separated from the hair, hide, hooves, bones, and organs. Being a cats meat man taught less about anatomy than eating a piece of fried chicken.

Didn't know that Fiver. Thanks for that info.

Cheers John

[Fiver]

So the doctors at the time of the ripper murders thought there was some degree of anatomical skill / knowledge .Whats changed ?

That is not an accurate summary.

Some doctors thought that the Ripper had a lot of anatomical knowledge. Some doctors thought the Ripper had some anatomical anatomical knowledge, but not enough to be a doctor. Some doctors thought the Ripper had no anatomical knowledge at all.

[Fiver]

Bury's wife was an ex prostitute and Bury was reportedly a cat meat Butcher so shouldn't he have 2 more points? Also and this goes for Herlock's table too.

Cheers John

Cats meat men bought boiled meat from slaughterers. It had already been separated from the hair, hide, hooves, bones, and organs. Being a cats meat man taught less about anatomy than eating a piece of fried chicken.

[Trevor Marriott]

Of course we can only speculate because we haven't go the information from the mutilating serial killer to compare with the one butcher that we have an opinion from. I'm just guessing (or, to be technical, I'm hypothesising), that the serial killer's view will be different. I could be wrong but I could be right! Without the information, all we have is the opinion of someone who, presumably, wouldn't kill multiple people, and who would have a natural aversion to doing so. Someone who lacks that aversion might tell us that it's "no big deal"! Or they may agree with the butcher. Without having the information, we can make no comparison, but we can suggest caution due to lack of information.

Hmmm, you say you think the killer's motivation was "...only murder and mutilation", but then you wonder about why no attempts were made to harvest organs at other crime scenes?

I think the answer is contained within your ideas already. If the killer's motive was murder and mutilation, than taking organs is just an after thoguht, something they did on some occasions, but not something that was the primary drive behind the murders. As such, we should not be surprised if such secondary desires do not show up every time.

- Jeff

But if the killer as a secondary thought took a uterus from Chapman would he then go on to take the same organ from Eddowes also as a secondary thought I very much doubt it.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

But we can only speculate what a mutilating serial killer might say or do, we have a clear and concise opinion from a master butcher?

Of course we can only speculate because we haven't go the information from the mutilating serial killer to compare with the one butcher that we have an opinion from. I'm just guessing (or, to be technical, I'm hypothesising), that the serial killer's view will be different. I could be wrong but I could be right! Without the information, all we have is the opinion of someone who, presumably, wouldn't kill multiple people, and who would have a natural aversion to doing so. Someone who lacks that aversion might tell us that it's "no big deal"! Or they may agree with the butcher. Without having the information, we can make no comparison, but we can suggest caution due to lack of information.

My opinion based on the assessment and evaluation of all the facts and evidence is that the killer's motive was only murder and mutilation.

If it is suggested that it was one killer, and that killer was intent on harvesting organs from the crime scenes, why is it that we see no evidence of any attempts to remove organs from any of the other victims?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hmmm, you say you think the killer's motivation was "...only murder and mutilation", but then you wonder about why no attempts were made to harvest organs at other crime scenes?

I think the answer is contained within your ideas already. If the killer's motive was murder and mutilation, than taking organs is just an after thoguht, something they did on some occasions, but not something that was the primary drive behind the murders. As such, we should not be surprised if such secondary desires do not show up every time.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

No problem Jon. I’m done with the thread anyway.

[jmenges]

Multiple posts on this thread have been reported. Too many that I care to go through.
The very nature of the threads topic/goal was bound to create problems amongst the few members who conflict on the boards wherever they travel.
Same **** different day.
Ignore each other. Don’t refer to each other.
If the constant bickering doesn’t cease there will be lengthy consequences.

JM

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

I suspect what a serial killer can do, and what a sane person believes they can do, are not quite the same. Also, the exact lighting conditions are unknown to us. We do have Dr. Sequeria (sp?) saying that the location where Eddowes was found was the darkest corner of the square, but he also says that there was sufficient light for the offender, so it wasn't total darkness. The above butcher seems to describing a situation that may not apply. In the Chapman case, we're dealing with some uncertainty as to the time of the crime, but one of the options puts it around 5:25ish, at which point light isn't an issue as there would be dawn light (meaning, the sun is coming up and so there's more natural lighting than at say midnight. I'm not wanting to get into the Chaptman ToD debate here, so I accept that there are those who place the time of the murder much earlier, and if I'm wrong then the point is moot). I suppose, given the descriptions of the Stride crime scene, one could argue the lack of lighting explains the lack of mutilations - he just couldn't see so he left. In the Nichols' case there's no organ removal, just slashing, so that doesn't require light. And in the Kelly case there's the fire, and clearly he did what he did, so there was light enough for that.

I don't think you and I will ever agree with respect to the organ removal in the Chapman and Eddowes case (let alone the Kelly case), which is fine as far as I'm concerned, so I'm not going to enter a debate with you on that. We have different views, and given the case is both unsolved, combined with the fact that we're dealing with a woefully inadequate evidence set, it is for the best that as many options as possible be kept on the table even if everyone at that table doesn't agree. As soon as a possibility gets removed, after all, an investigation runs the risk of failing to follow the correct path, so one has to be very very sure an idea should be set aside before it gets set aside. Personally, I don't think the evidence we have for the JtR cases is sufficient to set very much aside, as I don't think we should ever be "very very sure" of anything. But given that, I approach it as an exercise in ordering the options, which "theory" would I put my resources into because they seem more likely to produce results, and which would I limit to "well go ahead but until you find me something, you are on your own, but produce and I'll provide you with an assistant to help if it looks promising" - meaning, which theories are not off the table, but all the same appear to be playing the "long odds". I've never put forth a suspect, so I'm not sure where I sit at that table. I'm just trying to understand what happened first, and I'm not even sure we can do that!

Basically, I think it is good to get opinions from modern butchers (as you've done above), and so forth, but I rather suspect if you asked the same question of a mutilating serial killer, you would have a good chance of getting a very different answer (although one might question the honesty of such individuals!). Sane people do not really understand just what actions depraved people can do and have done - we have this instinct that prevents us from envisioning ourselves doing these things, but fail to comprehend how someone can act without those instinctive restraints. That's a good thing, by the way.

- Jeff

But we can only speculate what a mutilating serial killer might say or do, we have a clear and concise opinion from a master butcher?

My opinion based on the assessment and evaluation of all the facts and evidence is that the killer's motive was only murder and mutilation.

If it is suggested that it was one killer, and that killer was intent on harvesting organs from the crime scenes, why is it that we see no evidence of any attempts to remove organs from any of the other victims?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Stop looking, you know what you said and the context you said in . Move on .

You’ve invented that Fishy. Provide the evidence to prove that I’m wrong. You won’t be able to because I didn’t say it (and please don’t try the old ‘ive already proved it’ tactic because everyone will see through it)

[Herlock Sholmes]

It doesnt matter whether others support Gull or not Herlock , were merely pointing out, and giving evidence as to why we believe a flaw in your scoring sysem exist as we see it in regards to certain suspects , druitt and sickert included . Naturally you dont like it [ nothing new there ] and you become offensive towards anyone who opposes this .

And there we are again. I haven’t said one single offensive thing in this thread. Not one. But there you are using the same tactic that you used in the Richardson thread. Stick to the topic Fishy.

You made a point about Sickert….i changed it accordingly. How is that being unfair?