Conjecture vs 'evidence'

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman -

I'm not sure what source you are working from, but when Kozminski was admitted to the workhouse on Saturday 12 July 1890, he was listed as "2y insane".. which pushes his insanity back to roughly July 1888, the eve of the murders. Whitfield saw him at that time.

Thankyou for that, did you copy the reverse, apparently there are notes by Whitfield on the back?

My source was Rob House's book, I gave the title in a post above.
It was the bottom of page 183.



It seems Rob believed your "2y insane" is actually "Qy insane". Rob also says "Qy insane" is written next to several other admissions.

If he was regarded insane for the last two years, that means he had to have been placed in an asylum previously, and records kept going back to 1888.
Yet we have no evidence such is the case, not yet anyway.

[rjpalmer]

What we read is that on 12 July 1890 Kozminski was brought to Mile End Old Town Asylum by one of his brothers.
The admittance papers seem to suggest it was for evaluation. Whether they needed a doctors requisition form to do this I don't know, we have no mention of doctors up to this point.
His admission papers suggest the reason was "Qy insane", "query insane" which seems to mean to question his sanity. Maurice Whitfield made notes on this admission form, among these notes was that which we mentioned already:
"age of first attack" = 25.
(As Kozminski was born in 1865, we know that his first attack was in 1890).
"duration of existing attack" = 6 months.
As we know Kozminski was readmitted to the Mile End workhouse in Feb 1891, we can see this was 6 months after his first admission (6 month 3 wks) had to have been noted after his second admission.

So why the author thought 6 years was correct is not clear, who changed it and why we don't know, 6 month fits the written evidence.

Hi Wickerman -

I'm not sure what source you are working from, but when Kozminski was admitted to the workhouse on Saturday 12 July 1890, he was listed as "2y insane".. which pushes his insanity back to roughly July 1888, the eve of the murders. Whitfield saw him at that time.

The second notation, directly under the first and which is barely legible, seems to say "destitute & two years insane."

This obviously suggests that the 1891 notation of 'six month insane' only refers to the most current breakdown and not to his first sign of insanity.





The main contradiction in the records, it seems to me, is whether AK first showed signs of mental illness in 1885 or in 1888.

[Wickerman]

What we read is that on 12 July 1890 Kozminski was brought to Mile End Old Town Asylum by one of his brothers.
The admittance papers seem to suggest it was for evaluation. Whether they needed a doctors requisition form to do this I don't know, we have no mention of doctors up to this point.
His admission papers suggest the reason was "Qy insane", "query insane" which seems to mean to question his sanity. Maurice Whitfield made notes on this admission form, among these notes was that which we mentioned already:
"age of first attack" = 25.
(As Kozminski was born in 1865, we know that his first attack was in 1890).
"duration of existing attack" = 6 months.
As we know Kozminski was readmitted to the Mile End workhouse in Feb 1891, we can see this was 6 months after his first admission (6 month 3 wks) had to have been noted after his second admission.

So why the author thought 6 years was correct is not clear, who changed it and why we don't know, 6 month fits the written evidence.

[Wickerman]

But how do we know there were any earlier hospital records?

Because only a doctor can admit a patient to an Asylum, it also takes a Justice of the Peace to admit a patient to Colney Hatch.
The patient must have medical records in order to move into the Asylum system, and be moved from one to another.
It was J.P. Henry Chamber who's signature put Kozminski in Colney Hatch.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Records concerning the patients history are transferred with him.

But how do we know there were any earlier hospital records?

[Wickerman]

Why would the asylum have paperwork relating to Kosminski's insanity during the six years prior to his admission?

Maybe his most recent attack was of six months' duration at the time of his admission, but he had been ill for six years.

Records concerning the patients history are transferred with him.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Ah, yes, this was that controversial date change.
The entry originally read "not dangerous to others", and "duration of existing attack 6 months", but that was changed to "years"

Changing the spate of a recent attack to 6 years seems an extreme oversight.
These institutions kept a diary of daily reports on each patient, there would be volumes of paperwork if he was insane for 6 years, but, what can you do?

Why would the asylum have paperwork relating to Kosminski's insanity during the six years prior to his admission?

Maybe his most recent attack was of six months' duration at the time of his admission, but he had been ill for six years.

[Wickerman]

I suppose it all depends on one's interpretation of insanity, which was likely much more loose in 1891. If he was schizophrenic, it can be an evolving illness that grows worse with time. In the earliest days, he may have had periods of muttering to himself, for instance, when lost in his delusions, but when before a group of people, such as in court, he would have been more focused and the delusions may not have crept in as easily. He may have even struggled deliberately to maintain some composure, especially knowing he was before people who were literally judging him. That can and often does change over time, and that level of control tends to weaken. I speak from experience.

Rob House's book, Jack the Ripper and the case for Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect, on page 189 reads:
"The subsequent Asylums Act of 1845 gives a legal and medical definition for different classes of "insane" person.
(Rob writes 'three" classes, but it reads like two).
An "idiot" or "imbecile" was a person 'non compos mentis' = not of sound mind, incurable.
Where "not of sound mind" was someone who by reason of a morbid condition of intellect is incapable of managing himself or his affairs.
A "lunatic" was a person who was previously 'sane', but now suffers from a temporary or permanent mental disability.

[Wickerman]

As a reminder, Aaron Kozminski's Colney Hatch admission records (1891) state that he was "six years insane".

That would date his insanity to 1885---three years before the murders.

Ah, yes, this was that controversial date change.
The entry originally read "not dangerous to others", and "duration of existing attack 6 months", but that was changed to "years".
Rob House thinks the revision was more accurate, but doesn't say why.

Some forms of insanity come in spats that can last weeks or months, perhaps that is all the note was suggesting?
Changing the spate of a recent attack to 6 years seems an extreme oversight.
These institutions kept a diary of daily reports on each patient, there would be volumes of paperwork if he was insane for 6 years, but, what can you do?
It says, what it says.

I should have read a bit further.

The cause of his deemed "insanity" is given as "self abuse", this was viewed in the 19th century as an act of insanity....

So, is the argument that Kozminski could have been Jack the Ripper because of his preference for self abuse?

[Single-O-Seven]

Ah, thankyou. So when he appeared in court about the dog issue, he was insane then?
He seemed to conduct himself without drawing undue attention.

I suppose it all depends on one's interpretation of insanity, which was likely much more loose in 1891. If he was schizophrenic, it can be an evolving illness that grows worse with time. In the earliest days, he may have had periods of muttering to himself, for instance, when lost in his delusions, but when before a group of people, such as in court, he would have been more focused and the delusions may not have crept in as easily. He may have even struggled deliberately to maintain some composure, especially knowing he was before people who were literally judging him. That can and often does change over time, and that level of control tends to weaken. I speak from experience.

[Wickerman]

As a reminder, Aaron Kozminski's Colney Hatch admission records (1891) state that he was "six years insane".

That would date his insanity to 1885---three years before the murders.

Ah, thankyou. So when he appeared in court about the dog issue, he was insane then?
He seemed to conduct himself without drawing undue attention.

[rjpalmer]

With Kozminski this is also true, but his mental state in 1888, according to existing records, shows a perfectly normal person. It's his illness that is the most qualifying factor, but that condition is only apparent later in life after the murders.

As a reminder, Aaron Kozminski's Colney Hatch admission records (1891) state that he was "six years insane".

That would date his insanity to 1885---three years before the murders.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You mean he was not Aaron Kosminski and you mean Swanson was wrong about him being Kosminski?

And if he was not an unemployed hairdresser, how could he have worked in Butchers' Row and also owned or managed a number of shops?

You have since posted a comment on another thread, but you cannot respond here after an hour and twenty five minutes?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Because it wasn't an unemployed hairdresser.

You mean he was not Aaron Kosminski and you mean Swanson was wrong about him being Kosminski?

And if he was not an unemployed hairdresser, how could he have worked in Butchers' Row and also owned or managed a number of shops?

[Scott Nelson]

How could you have imagined that an unemployed hairdresser could have been working in Butchers' Row and also been the owner of a number of shops?

Because it wasn't an unemployed hairdresser.