Conjecture vs 'evidence'

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's a Victorian thing. Here are entries for Quinn, Quinton, Quigley, etc. from the workhouse records.

There’s no doubt about it then Roger. If I hadn’t seen the evidence though I’d have said that it was a 2 all day long.

[rjpalmer]

I would suggest the abbreviation is Ly, for "Legally" - it would be relevant for an institution to note whether an inmate was merely insane or considered by the police or courts to be legally insane, for instance if an inmate could only be admitted against his or her will if legally insane.

EDIT: just saw RJ Palmer's examples of Qs and concur that Qy seems the better interpretation for now

Well, it would still be nice to find a reference to this abbreviation that didn't refer to Aaron Kozminski!

Find My Past has a long list of workhouse abbreviations, but it doesn't list either 'Qy' or anything similar.

[Kattrup]

I would suggest the abbreviation is Ly, for "Legally" - it would be relevant for an institution to note whether an inmate was merely insane or considered by the police or courts to be legally insane, for instance if an inmate could only be admitted against his or her will if legally insane.

EDIT: just saw RJ Palmer's examples of Qs and concur that Qy seems the better interpretation for now

[rjpalmer]

Hi Roger,

I’m certainly not faulting your reasoning but I’d would have argued with my dying breath that it said 2y and not Qy next to Kosminski’s name. I’ve never seen a q written like that.

It's a Victorian thing. Here are entries for Quinn, Quinton, Quigley, etc. from the workhouse records.

[rjpalmer]

Hi Roger,

I’m certainly not faulting your reasoning but I’d would have argued with my dying breath that it said 2y and not Qy next to Kosminski’s name. I’ve never seen a q written like that. It doesn’t even vaguely resemble a q to me. Couldn’t 2y have meant something else? Probably not. As I said, you’re reasoning makes perfect sense but I’ve never seen a letter look less like the letter it’s supposed to represent.

I see that Jon, Chris Scott, and others discussed this some years back. Chris George suggested it might be a medical abbreviation for "diagnosis," but he never came back to confirm it:

Kozminski Mile End Records for July 1890 - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

I don't know who first identified it as 'query'--maybe Chris Philips--but both Robert House and Russell Edwards also make this suggestion.

Paul Begg interprets it as "two years insane" in The Facts (pg. 371) but given the other entries, I don't see how this could be correct.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Wick -- I think I concluded long ago that Rob House was correct, but someone managed to forget it again and momentarily slipped back into the '2y' idea, which has to be wrong unless every person admitted had been insane for exactly two years, which obviously makes no sense.

There were seven different people admitted to the Mile End Workhouse around the same time, designated as insane. 6 of the 7 have the same notation 'Qy insane,' while only one is listed as simply "insane." Fanny Maria Thomas.

Elizabeth Ward, 46, Qy: Insane (July 7)
Alfred Thompson, 22, Qy Insane (July7)
William Groves, 62, Qy Insane (July 8)
George Holt, 25, Qy Insane (July 10)
Owen Nelson, 40, Qy Insane (July 10)
Fanny Maria Thomas, 40, Insane (July 11)
Aaron Kosorimski, 25, Qy Insane (July 12)

Of interest is that of the seven, only one was admitted to the infirmary (Elizabeth Ward) and only one was released back to his family (Kosorimski or Kozminski) ie., to his brother.

The other five were sent to various lunatic asylums, Bethnal House Asylum, Hoxton House Asylum, Grove Hall Asylum, etc.

We can speculate if this was due to the severity of the patient's symptoms or whether the families' wishes and circumstances also played a role.




Looking at other entries in the surrounding days and weeks, there seems to be three designations: Qy Insane, Deemed Insane, and Insane. The question would be what is the difference between the three terms. I speculate that Fanny Maria Thomas might have been previously diagnosed with insanity, but I've yet to find any evidence of it. I'm not immediately finding an earlier entry for her. I'll have to look at the history of the others when I get more time.

Hi Roger,

I’m certainly not faulting your reasoning but I’d would have argued with my dying breath that it said 2y and not Qy next to Kosminski’s name. I’ve never seen a q written like that. It doesn’t even vaguely resemble a q to me. Couldn’t 2y have meant something else? Probably not. As I said, you’re reasoning makes perfect sense but I’ve never seen a letter look less like the letter it’s supposed to represent.

[rjpalmer]

I speculate that Fanny Maria Thomas might have been previously diagnosed with insanity, but I've yet to find any evidence of it.

For what it's worth, Fanny Maria Thomas can be found living with her husband and brother-in-law in Mile End Old Town the following year, 1891.

The 1891 census has a column for "deaf-and-dumb, blind, and lunatic/imbecile/or idiot," and hers is blank, but the enumerators seemed to rarely fill it out.

[rjpalmer]

I had to try compare all the other '2's on that page with your '2y', just to be sure they are not the same. I wasn't sure to be honest.

Are there any notes on the reverse of that admissions slip?

Hi Wick -- I think I concluded long ago that Rob House was correct, but someone managed to forget it again and momentarily slipped back into the '2y' idea, which has to be wrong unless every person admitted had been insane for exactly two years, which obviously makes no sense.

There were seven different people admitted to the Mile End Workhouse around the same time, designated as insane. 6 of the 7 have the same notation 'Qy insane,' while only one is listed as simply "insane." Fanny Maria Thomas.

Elizabeth Ward, 46, Qy: Insane (July 7)
Alfred Thompson, 22, Qy Insane (July7)
William Groves, 62, Qy Insane (July 8)
George Holt, 25, Qy Insane (July 10)
Owen Nelson, 40, Qy Insane (July 10)
Fanny Maria Thomas, 40, Insane (July 11)
Aaron Kosorimski, 25, Qy Insane (July 12)

Of interest is that of the seven, only one was admitted to the infirmary (Elizabeth Ward) and only one was released back to his family (Kosorimski or Kozminski) ie., to his brother.

The other five were sent to various lunatic asylums, Bethnal House Asylum, Hoxton House Asylum, Grove Hall Asylum, etc.

We can speculate if this was due to the severity of the patient's symptoms or whether the families' wishes and circumstances also played a role.






Looking at other entries in the surrounding days and weeks, there seems to be three designations: Qy Insane, Deemed Insane, and Insane. The question would be what is the difference between the three terms. I speculate that Fanny Maria Thomas might have been previously diagnosed with insanity, but I've yet to find any evidence of it. I'm not immediately finding an earlier entry for her. I'll have to look at the history of the others when I get more time.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

As a patient, it is more likely the police escorted the Workhouse staff who actually were the one's moving the patient around.

The police were just with them for security.

The police should not spread rumors that a patient could be the murderer - innocent till proven guilty, and all that.

The patient can be placed in solitary to protect other patients, but that is the decision of the doctor not police.

If so, then there had to be workhouse staff who knew of the attempt to identify him at the seaside.

Not only that, but they decided afterwards that he still was not dangerous.

It has nothing to do with spreading rumours.

If Kosminski was identified as the Whitechapel Murderer, and was returned to the workhouse, then is it really possible that the police did not mention their concerns?

And note that Swanson did not mention the workhouse in connection with the transportation or return of Kosminski at all.

[Wickerman]

If Aaron Kosminski's mental illness was first noted in July 1890, why was he released after three days?

His symptoms must, presumably, have been deemed not to be serious enough to have warranted his transfer to an asylum until nearly seven months later.

Correct, not dangerous to others.

What reason is there to suspect that during the three days in which he was being observed, presumably in order to decide his precise mental status, he was whisked off to the seaside by the police for an identification procedure?

Yes, that has been suggested.

And if he had been taken by the police, would they not have been under an obligation to return him to the workhouse rather than to his home?

And would they not also have been under an obligation to inform the workhouse that they had reason to suspect him of being a serial murderer, and that other inmates, especially those of female gender, could therefore be at serious risk from his presence?

As a patient, it is more likely the police escorted the Workhouse staff who actually were the one's moving the patient around.
The police were just with them for security.
The police should not spread rumors that a patient could be the murderer - innocent till proven guilty, and all that.
The patient can be placed in solitary to protect other patients, but that is the decision of the doctor not police.

[Wickerman]

What I meant in my last post was, I compared all the '2's in this admission slip with the "2y" at right, to see if they looked identical.
Unfortunately there are no other "Q"'s to make the same comparison.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick - Yes, he must be right that the notation can't mean 2 years insane. It's been awhile since I've studied it.

Here is the same notation on a previous page. Query with a colon would appear to be correct.

I had to try compare all the other '2's on that page with your '2y', just to be sure they are not the same. I wasn't sure to be honest.

Are there any notes on the reverse of that admissions slip?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If Aaron Kosminski's mental illness was first noted in July 1890, why was he released after three days?

His symptoms must, presumably, have been deemed not to be serious enough to have warranted his transfer to an asylum until nearly seven months later.

What reason is there to suspect that during the three days in which he was being observed, presumably in order to decide his precise mental status, he was whisked off to the seaside by the police for an identification procedure?

And if he had been taken by the police, would they not have been under an obligation to return him to the workhouse rather than to his home?

And would they not also have been under an obligation to inform the workhouse that they had reason to suspect him of being a serial murderer, and that other inmates, especially those of female gender, could therefore be at serious risk from his presence?

[rjpalmer]

It seems Rob believed your "2y insane" is actually "Qy insane". Rob also says "Qy insane" is written next to several other admissions.

Hi Wick - Yes, he must be right that the notation can't mean 2 years insane. It's been awhile since I've studied it.

Here is the same notation on a previous page. Query with a colon would appear to be correct.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The second notation, directly under the first and which is barely legible, seems to say "destitute & two years insane."

This obviously suggests that the 1891 notation of 'six month insane' only refers to the most current breakdown and not to his first sign of insanity.

Which is exactly what I speculated in #27.