Conjecture vs 'evidence'

[Wickerman]

What we read is that on 12 July 1890 Kozminski was brought to Mile End Old Town Asylum by one of his brothers.
The admittance papers seem to suggest it was for evaluation. Whether they needed a doctors requisition form to do this I don't know, we have no mention of doctors up to this point.
His admission papers suggest the reason was "Qy insane", "query insane" which seems to mean to question his sanity. Maurice Whitfield made notes on this admission form, among these notes was that which we mentioned already:
"age of first attack" = 25.
(As Kozminski was born in 1865, we know that his first attack was in 1890).
"duration of existing attack" = 6 months.
As we know Kozminski was readmitted to the Mile End workhouse in Feb 1891, we can see this was 6 months after his first admission (6 month 3 wks) had to have been noted after his second admission.

So why the author thought 6 years was correct is not clear, who changed it and why we don't know, 6 month fits the written evidence.

[rjpalmer]

What we read is that on 12 July 1890 Kozminski was brought to Mile End Old Town Asylum by one of his brothers.
The admittance papers seem to suggest it was for evaluation. Whether they needed a doctors requisition form to do this I don't know, we have no mention of doctors up to this point.
His admission papers suggest the reason was "Qy insane", "query insane" which seems to mean to question his sanity. Maurice Whitfield made notes on this admission form, among these notes was that which we mentioned already:
"age of first attack" = 25.
(As Kozminski was born in 1865, we know that his first attack was in 1890).
"duration of existing attack" = 6 months.
As we know Kozminski was readmitted to the Mile End workhouse in Feb 1891, we can see this was 6 months after his first admission (6 month 3 wks) had to have been noted after his second admission.

So why the author thought 6 years was correct is not clear, who changed it and why we don't know, 6 month fits the written evidence.

Hi Wickerman -

I'm not sure what source you are working from, but when Kozminski was admitted to the workhouse on Saturday 12 July 1890, he was listed as "2y insane".. which pushes his insanity back to roughly July 1888, the eve of the murders. Whitfield saw him at that time.

The second notation, directly under the first and which is barely legible, seems to say "destitute & two years insane."

This obviously suggests that the 1891 notation of 'six month insane' only refers to the most current breakdown and not to his first sign of insanity.





The main contradiction in the records, it seems to me, is whether AK first showed signs of mental illness in 1885 or in 1888.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman -

I'm not sure what source you are working from, but when Kozminski was admitted to the workhouse on Saturday 12 July 1890, he was listed as "2y insane".. which pushes his insanity back to roughly July 1888, the eve of the murders. Whitfield saw him at that time.

Thankyou for that, did you copy the reverse, apparently there are notes by Whitfield on the back?

My source was Rob House's book, I gave the title in a post above.
It was the bottom of page 183.



It seems Rob believed your "2y insane" is actually "Qy insane". Rob also says "Qy insane" is written next to several other admissions.

If he was regarded insane for the last two years, that means he had to have been placed in an asylum previously, and records kept going back to 1888.
Yet we have no evidence such is the case, not yet anyway.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The second notation, directly under the first and which is barely legible, seems to say "destitute & two years insane."

This obviously suggests that the 1891 notation of 'six month insane' only refers to the most current breakdown and not to his first sign of insanity.

Which is exactly what I speculated in #27.

[rjpalmer]

It seems Rob believed your "2y insane" is actually "Qy insane". Rob also says "Qy insane" is written next to several other admissions.

Hi Wick - Yes, he must be right that the notation can't mean 2 years insane. It's been awhile since I've studied it.

Here is the same notation on a previous page. Query with a colon would appear to be correct.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If Aaron Kosminski's mental illness was first noted in July 1890, why was he released after three days?

His symptoms must, presumably, have been deemed not to be serious enough to have warranted his transfer to an asylum until nearly seven months later.

What reason is there to suspect that during the three days in which he was being observed, presumably in order to decide his precise mental status, he was whisked off to the seaside by the police for an identification procedure?

And if he had been taken by the police, would they not have been under an obligation to return him to the workhouse rather than to his home?

And would they not also have been under an obligation to inform the workhouse that they had reason to suspect him of being a serial murderer, and that other inmates, especially those of female gender, could therefore be at serious risk from his presence?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick - Yes, he must be right that the notation can't mean 2 years insane. It's been awhile since I've studied it.

Here is the same notation on a previous page. Query with a colon would appear to be correct.

I had to try compare all the other '2's on that page with your '2y', just to be sure they are not the same. I wasn't sure to be honest.

Are there any notes on the reverse of that admissions slip?

[Wickerman]

What I meant in my last post was, I compared all the '2's in this admission slip with the "2y" at right, to see if they looked identical.
Unfortunately there are no other "Q"'s to make the same comparison.

[Wickerman]

If Aaron Kosminski's mental illness was first noted in July 1890, why was he released after three days?

His symptoms must, presumably, have been deemed not to be serious enough to have warranted his transfer to an asylum until nearly seven months later.

Correct, not dangerous to others.

What reason is there to suspect that during the three days in which he was being observed, presumably in order to decide his precise mental status, he was whisked off to the seaside by the police for an identification procedure?

Yes, that has been suggested.

And if he had been taken by the police, would they not have been under an obligation to return him to the workhouse rather than to his home?

And would they not also have been under an obligation to inform the workhouse that they had reason to suspect him of being a serial murderer, and that other inmates, especially those of female gender, could therefore be at serious risk from his presence?

As a patient, it is more likely the police escorted the Workhouse staff who actually were the one's moving the patient around.
The police were just with them for security.
The police should not spread rumors that a patient could be the murderer - innocent till proven guilty, and all that.
The patient can be placed in solitary to protect other patients, but that is the decision of the doctor not police.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

As a patient, it is more likely the police escorted the Workhouse staff who actually were the one's moving the patient around.

The police were just with them for security.

The police should not spread rumors that a patient could be the murderer - innocent till proven guilty, and all that.

The patient can be placed in solitary to protect other patients, but that is the decision of the doctor not police.

If so, then there had to be workhouse staff who knew of the attempt to identify him at the seaside.

Not only that, but they decided afterwards that he still was not dangerous.

It has nothing to do with spreading rumours.

If Kosminski was identified as the Whitechapel Murderer, and was returned to the workhouse, then is it really possible that the police did not mention their concerns?

And note that Swanson did not mention the workhouse in connection with the transportation or return of Kosminski at all.

[rjpalmer]

I had to try compare all the other '2's on that page with your '2y', just to be sure they are not the same. I wasn't sure to be honest.

Are there any notes on the reverse of that admissions slip?

Hi Wick -- I think I concluded long ago that Rob House was correct, but someone managed to forget it again and momentarily slipped back into the '2y' idea, which has to be wrong unless every person admitted had been insane for exactly two years, which obviously makes no sense.

There were seven different people admitted to the Mile End Workhouse around the same time, designated as insane. 6 of the 7 have the same notation 'Qy insane,' while only one is listed as simply "insane." Fanny Maria Thomas.

Elizabeth Ward, 46, Qy: Insane (July 7)
Alfred Thompson, 22, Qy Insane (July7)
William Groves, 62, Qy Insane (July 8)
George Holt, 25, Qy Insane (July 10)
Owen Nelson, 40, Qy Insane (July 10)
Fanny Maria Thomas, 40, Insane (July 11)
Aaron Kosorimski, 25, Qy Insane (July 12)

Of interest is that of the seven, only one was admitted to the infirmary (Elizabeth Ward) and only one was released back to his family (Kosorimski or Kozminski) ie., to his brother.

The other five were sent to various lunatic asylums, Bethnal House Asylum, Hoxton House Asylum, Grove Hall Asylum, etc.

We can speculate if this was due to the severity of the patient's symptoms or whether the families' wishes and circumstances also played a role.






Looking at other entries in the surrounding days and weeks, there seems to be three designations: Qy Insane, Deemed Insane, and Insane. The question would be what is the difference between the three terms. I speculate that Fanny Maria Thomas might have been previously diagnosed with insanity, but I've yet to find any evidence of it. I'm not immediately finding an earlier entry for her. I'll have to look at the history of the others when I get more time.

[rjpalmer]

I speculate that Fanny Maria Thomas might have been previously diagnosed with insanity, but I've yet to find any evidence of it.

For what it's worth, Fanny Maria Thomas can be found living with her husband and brother-in-law in Mile End Old Town the following year, 1891.

The 1891 census has a column for "deaf-and-dumb, blind, and lunatic/imbecile/or idiot," and hers is blank, but the enumerators seemed to rarely fill it out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Wick -- I think I concluded long ago that Rob House was correct, but someone managed to forget it again and momentarily slipped back into the '2y' idea, which has to be wrong unless every person admitted had been insane for exactly two years, which obviously makes no sense.

There were seven different people admitted to the Mile End Workhouse around the same time, designated as insane. 6 of the 7 have the same notation 'Qy insane,' while only one is listed as simply "insane." Fanny Maria Thomas.

Elizabeth Ward, 46, Qy: Insane (July 7)
Alfred Thompson, 22, Qy Insane (July7)
William Groves, 62, Qy Insane (July 8)
George Holt, 25, Qy Insane (July 10)
Owen Nelson, 40, Qy Insane (July 10)
Fanny Maria Thomas, 40, Insane (July 11)
Aaron Kosorimski, 25, Qy Insane (July 12)

Of interest is that of the seven, only one was admitted to the infirmary (Elizabeth Ward) and only one was released back to his family (Kosorimski or Kozminski) ie., to his brother.

The other five were sent to various lunatic asylums, Bethnal House Asylum, Hoxton House Asylum, Grove Hall Asylum, etc.

We can speculate if this was due to the severity of the patient's symptoms or whether the families' wishes and circumstances also played a role.




Looking at other entries in the surrounding days and weeks, there seems to be three designations: Qy Insane, Deemed Insane, and Insane. The question would be what is the difference between the three terms. I speculate that Fanny Maria Thomas might have been previously diagnosed with insanity, but I've yet to find any evidence of it. I'm not immediately finding an earlier entry for her. I'll have to look at the history of the others when I get more time.

Hi Roger,

I’m certainly not faulting your reasoning but I’d would have argued with my dying breath that it said 2y and not Qy next to Kosminski’s name. I’ve never seen a q written like that. It doesn’t even vaguely resemble a q to me. Couldn’t 2y have meant something else? Probably not. As I said, you’re reasoning makes perfect sense but I’ve never seen a letter look less like the letter it’s supposed to represent.

[rjpalmer]

Hi Roger,

I’m certainly not faulting your reasoning but I’d would have argued with my dying breath that it said 2y and not Qy next to Kosminski’s name. I’ve never seen a q written like that. It doesn’t even vaguely resemble a q to me. Couldn’t 2y have meant something else? Probably not. As I said, you’re reasoning makes perfect sense but I’ve never seen a letter look less like the letter it’s supposed to represent.

I see that Jon, Chris Scott, and others discussed this some years back. Chris George suggested it might be a medical abbreviation for "diagnosis," but he never came back to confirm it:

Kozminski Mile End Records for July 1890 - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

I don't know who first identified it as 'query'--maybe Chris Philips--but both Robert House and Russell Edwards also make this suggestion.

Paul Begg interprets it as "two years insane" in The Facts (pg. 371) but given the other entries, I don't see how this could be correct.

[rjpalmer]

Hi Roger,

I’m certainly not faulting your reasoning but I’d would have argued with my dying breath that it said 2y and not Qy next to Kosminski’s name. I’ve never seen a q written like that.

It's a Victorian thing. Here are entries for Quinn, Quinton, Quigley, etc. from the workhouse records.