Evidence to prove a suspect valid

[Bridewell]

The parcel size coincides with the dimensions of Der Arbeter Fraint

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

The problem I have with the notion that Smith's man was carrying copies of the Arbeter Fraint is that Smith would surely have been familiar with the publication and recognised it for what it was if that was its nature. He didn't. The parcel's contents could have been entirely innocent, but I personally doubt that it was simply copies of that publication.

[pinkmoon]

Hi Lynn,

The problem I have with the notion that Smith's man was carrying copies of the Arbeter Fraint is that Smith would surely have been familiar with the publication and recognised it for what it was if that was its nature. He didn't. The parcel's contents could have been entirely innocent, but I personally doubt that it was simply copies of that publication.

Hi bridewell,the gentleman that pc smith saw must have arroused some suspicion in Smith's mind hence the quite detailed description he gave however why didn't he stop and search the gentleman or at least speak to him?could it be that no such man was observed by Smith?could smith have made it up instead of having to report he saw nothing when he was in the area when the murder occured.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom. Thanks.

"I would imagine Lave was sought out since the people in the club were all asked 'Who was the last to come in?' Lave and Eagle would have been the answers."

Indeed. But Lave's complicity with the paper makes him look rather innocent?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn. What was Lave's "complicity with the paper"? I don't know what that means. And he probably is innocent. But that doesn't mean they figured the police would know that. I suspect he was up to no good in American, hence his trip to London.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Lave says that he was in the passage and as far as the gates between 12:30 and 12:40..maybe having a smoke since many did after meetings. Eagle says he entered the passageway at 12:40.

Seems to me both statements include the same time. Its also the time that Isaac K told reporters the night of the murder that he was called to the passageway regarding a women found dead there.

Cheers

Hi Mike. Lave came in before Eagle returned home.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

fresh air

Hello Mike. I thought Lave remarked that he sought fresh air?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good look

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Perhaps that would depend on how good a look he got?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

interview

Hello Tom. Thanks.

"What was Lave's "complicity with the paper"?"

I meant in granting an interview. He seems not to have refused.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike. Lave came in before Eagle returned home.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

From the Evening News on Oct 1st,.... from Eagle..."I frequent the club. I went into it about 12.40 on this night that you are asking me about, which was about 20 minutes before the body was discovered."

From Lave, "I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street."

As I said before, seems to me they state they were both in the yard at the same time, yet neither sees each other, and Eagle couldnt remember seeing anyone.

Fact is these 2 witnesses statements are missing one very vital bit of information from their testimony, and coupled with Fanny Mortimer's statements about what she saw when she was at her door intermittently between 12:30 and 12:50am, its a question that I believe could be quite revealing when, or IF, its solved. Where was Stride at 12:40?

If Liz Stride is not seen on the street by Eagle arriving back at the club, or Lave or Fanny Mortimer after 12:35am, then its quite likely its because she wasnt on it during that period....at least from 12:35 until 12:40. Since she may have been cut as early as 12:46, its possible that she was already in the passageway that she dies in, just after PC Smith left. Which of course raises the question....if Eagle and Lave didnt see her in the passageway or on the street, and Fanny didnt see her one the street, then where does Liz Stride go after PC Smith left? Some might say she then is seen by Brown at 12:45, or some might say she is seen just outside the gates at 12:45 by Schwartz,...but anyone can understand that Liz Stride didnt just vanish and then simply reappear, dead. And she wasnt seen by both Brown and Schwartz...perhaps, by neither.

2 witnesses walk on or past the spot Liz is killed at 12:40 and claim to have seen nothing...not even each other... and Liz is cut sometime between 12:46 and 12:56 on that same spot. Which brings the 3rd club witness account into play.....what did Leon Goldstein see when he glanced into the open gates between 12:55 and 12:56? Liz Strides murderer would likely have been there then.

I suggest that its possible all 3 witnesses played dumb...hear no evil, see no evil...rather than state what they may have actually seen. And of the 3...Morris Eagles inability to remember IF he saw anyone makes his account questionable....particularly when it is his remarks that go a long way in substantiating the time Louis says he arrived...something that is specifically contradicted by the times given in the early accounts of at least 2 onsite members and one outside witness.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. I thought Lave remarked that he sought fresh air?

Cheers.
LC

I would say the same thing Lynn... when I step outside to smoke a cigarette, or walk my dog.

I dont think Lave structured his remarks to reflect the specific reason for his being there, just that he was outside getting air at the time. Not a verbatim issue I think.

Cheers Lynn

[GUT]

I would have thought that if you're in a room full of people who are all smoking, possibly with a nice little coal fire contributing a "breath of fresh air" might be exactly why you'd step outside.

[lynn cates]

generic

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Yes, could be generic.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

I would have thought that if you're in a room full of people who are all smoking, possibly with a nice little coal fire contributing a "breath of fresh air" might be exactly why you'd step outside.

I mentioned the smoking GUT because some neighbors... when asked about the goings on in the club passageway after Saturday meetings suggested that "low men" could be seen and heard while smoking and talking ...often, after 1am.

Another side point, Ive re-read some press clippings and Wess was quoted as saying that he rarely if ever saw Prostitutes on Berner Street near to the club.

Cheers

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

I mentioned the smoking GUT because some neighbors... when asked about the goings on in the club passageway after Saturday meetings suggested that "low men" could be seen and heard while smoking and talking ...often, after 1am.

I've never seen it, but do we know when the club closed?

[GUT]

Another side point, Ive re-read some press clippings and Wess was quoted as saying that he rarely if ever saw Prostitutes on Berner Street near to the club.

I can't say I've ever noticed that, but an interesting point.

I wonder how the neighbors would recognize an unfortunate from any other couple?

[caz]

I wonder how the neighbors would recognize an unfortunate from any other couple?

Much the same way we would do so today, I reckon, GUT.

Maybe not so much by the clothes back then, but the body language, loitering late at night and general behaviour would have been suggestive. Probably more so back then, when people were more concerned with being seen to conduct themselves respectably when in public.

One of the three Jewish men who saw Eddowes with the man near Mitre Square said he felt uneasy when he saw those 'types' about, which suggests he didn't consider them to be a 'respectable' couple, going about their business at 1.30am.

On the question of witness timings on and around Berner St that night, I never cease to be amazed by all the piffle talked (not by you I hasten to add). Firstly, it was nigh on impossible to think back and pinpoint a time exactly, when one was just minding one's own business and not expecting to be asked later when they were doing it. Secondly, most witnesses seem to have approximated to the nearest five minutes when estimating the time; others to the nearest quarter of an hour; some to the nearest half hour, depending on their individual circumstances.

Thirdly, if they had cctv by the yard entrance it would all now be painfully clear just how many 'witnesses' (club members, passers-by, murder suspects and murder victim) could have come and gone and totally missed one another within the space of a minute or two, never mind five or ten.

Love,

Caz
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