Evidence to prove a suspect valid

[Errata]

Stride was on the ground, her features were placid, and she did not lie down voluntarily, so it must be considered that she was subdued in some way.
Drugs and chemical compounds do not appear to have been involved, neither was there evidence of a physical blow to the head sufficient to knock her out.

The scarf was noted as pulled tight, and a broad scarf just may not bruise or mark the skin as easy as a narrow thin cord, so if we accept that she didn't lie down voluntarily, then the scarf is the most likely tool used in rendering her unconscious.
And, a scarf pulled tight would just as easily compress the arteries and the larynx restricting both blood flow and oxygen to the brain, this together has the ability to render someone unconscious rapidly.

This does not eliminate the possibility that she had time for one 'scream', but the singing in the club may have drowned that out.

But constriction leaves marks too. Even if the classic ligature marks aren't present, you get marks and even abrasions where the edges of the fabric bite into the skin. And she would have been killed almost immediately after, so no time for the marks to fade. And then the damn cachous.

But she was wearing a silk scarf, which makes an enormous difference when compared to someone strangled with a cord, or even a cotton or wool scarf. I could write a paper on why the silk scarf changes everything.

[mklhawley]

I don't think you are being argumentative. I simply think that the choke hold took a little longer than your perception of it. I think it probably takes 10 seconds. In the actual choke hold the difference between 3 and 10 seconds is probably totally besides the point. In a competition situation in which you have been working hard, your blood gets super oxygenated, but also moves faster because your heart rate is up. I think a choke hold after exertion probably takes a little less time than if you were just standing there. But the only way you get choked out in three seconds is because pressure on the vagus nerve stops your heart or a TIA. Which is rare. Most people don't survive that. If that is whats happening to you, I strongly encourage you to stop it. Like, seriously.

But let me ask you this. When put in a choke hold, do you go limp? Do you completely lose the ability to move your arms and legs? I never have. Even three seconds of fighting is enough to get marked, or mark someone else. 10 seconds feels like the beating of a lifetime when someone is struggling to get free of you.

I have always been able to scream when in a choke hold. Now I can see there might be a difference between men and women in this regard. Men have a more prominent adams apple, a person doesn't have to press as hard to shove it against the larynx. Now I won't say I've ever let out a scream that sounded like a good old fashioned Hollywood scream. It sounds more like someone savaging a duck. But it's loud enough to get attention.

But there are absolutely choke holds that do not allow someone to scream. The one described in the article by Tom is a perfect example. But that takes longer to actually choke someone out since it works by blocking the airway, not the arteries. Which means longer for the victim to fight.

There is no sign that Stride was choked. Her eyes and tongue weren't protruding, the are no bruises on her neck, nothing was broken in the throat. And being choked through ischemia rather than asphyxiation means that as soon as a person is lying down, their pressure resumes to normal. These people are typically upright again in a few seconds. Stride could very well have woken up to someone cutting her throat, or even with it already done. But she would have clutched at the wound, and she didn't. She wound have tried to get away and she didn't. There is no way choking her out keeps her out long enough for her to bleed to death. That takes a couple of minutes. I can't imagine just lying there perfectly still waiting to die.

Hi Errata,

Tom is absolutely right. Anytime anyone passes out from a choke, their eyes are actually closed and the tongue is in the mouth, at least on the judo mats. Most of the time, the person taps out in order not to pass out.

Great question about how ones body responds during the choke. In judo, we don't apply a choke standing; it's during grappling, or what we call newaza. While the arms are involved with applying the choke, the legs are involved with keeping their arms and legs at bay. It's amazingly effective. Also, as the choke is in, there's so much pressure and pain for the person that it overwhelms their senses and their only goal in life is to try and pry the arm off. Even if they try and strike, it has zero weight behind it, but then there's only seconds.

In aikido, we apply standing chokes, and before one is applied, the person must be off their base. The person being choked will be tipped back at about 45 degrees, so they will not be able to use their legs (way off balance). Their hands will go immediately to the choker's arm in order to pry it off (fat chance). While applying the choke, our heads are tucked so any possibility of strikes just hit the top of your head.

I'd imagine if a man used the bare arm choke on women like this, not only would he wrap his arm around them, he'd lift her up and back, as well, stretching and arching the woman's back. She would find it difficult to hit the face if he choked them from his side position.

A deep bare arm choke, where the crotch of the elbow is on the adam's apple, will not only stop the blood supply to the brain, it'll close off the wind pipe from the sides (not directly on the adam's apple). The best I hear is gurgling.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom is absolutely right.

Now there's a thread title waiting to happen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

Might be a long wait, less you start it yourself.

[Observer]

Absolutely she could have. I think she would still drop the bag, but yes, she absolutely could have been in a literal rictus of fear.

Well that's it, he choked her, she froze, and it was the killer who placed the cachous in her hand. But on a more serious note

So if Stride is a Ripper victim, he is using some other method of controlling her.

The fear of the knife would have been enough to control her, or any of the other victims for that matter. With a knife held to her throat, I'd imagine this threat would be enough to shut her up, and also enough to force her to the ground.

I still think she was choked out though

Sorry to hear about you bipolar disorder.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Just to add, regarding the knife threat

With knife held to her throat.

"One word out of you, and I'll cut your throat, now get on the ground"

[Observer]

Hi Obsy. The man Best and Gardner saw didn't kill Stride. So there was no reason for them not to duck out of the rain for a pint.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

Upon reflection I'd agree. However if PC Smith had not witnessed Stride with young parcel man. My money is on Smith's man by the way.

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

But constriction leaves marks too. Even if the classic ligature marks aren't present, you get marks and even abrasions where the edges of the fabric bite into the skin.

And this may well have been the case. The only published observation was that the scarf was pulled tight, but no mention of the condition of the neck.
If you notice, even in cases where strangulation is less debatable, we have no mention by the doctor of the condition of the hyoid bone.

And then the damn cachous.

I don't think its the cachous per-se, but the condition of her hand. If her hand was tightly clenched then the problem of the cachous goes away.
The only solution I think viable is that her fingers, like her expression, relaxed after she was dead.
We tend to put much too faith the more common solutions, while ignoring what is less likely but still possible.

But she was wearing a silk scarf, which makes an enormous difference when compared to someone strangled with a cord, or even a cotton or wool scarf. I could write a paper on why the silk scarf changes everything.

Silk is much like Nylon when used as a weapon. Though when a man uses a pair of women's nylon tights as a garrott he pulls them tight. The Silk scarf was already around her neck, more than likely worn flat in a more comfortable condition as opposed to twisted and pulled tight.

We can only guess what might have occurred, drawing any firm conclusions is beyond our abilities.

[GUT]

G'Day Wickerman

The only solution I think viable is that her fingers, like her expression, relaxed after she was dead.

I don't see any other acceptable proposition, they were in her hand, which probably clenched at the pain of the attack and then relaxed.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

Upon reflection I'd agree. However if PC Smith had not witnessed Stride with young parcel man. My money is on Smith's man by the way.

Regards

Observer

Hi Obsy. I assume you're aware of my theory regarding PC Smith's 'Parcel Man'? I know Michael Richards and Lynn Cates have repeated it countless times on here. But I'm curious to know why you'd suspect Parcel Man since it appears he wasn't on the scene 10 minutes later when Schwartz sauntered through?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

Silk is much like Nylon when used as a weapon. Though when a man uses a pair of women's nylon tights as a garrott he pulls them tight. The Silk scarf was already around her neck, more than likely worn flat in a more comfortable condition as opposed to twisted and pulled tight.

We can only guess what might have occurred, drawing any firm conclusions is beyond our abilities.

Nylon stretches. Nylon gives. Silk does not. A silk scarf (kerchief really. A whole scarf would feed her for a month) might as well be made of steel for our purposes. Silk also has issues with knots. Knots come undone very easily with silk, so to ensure that doesn't happen, people knot silk scarves very tightly. And she certainly wouldn't tie it loosely enough for him to get his hand between it and her neck. He certainly would not be able to twist it. And silk edges cut flesh. It is a wicked strong fiber. Jerking someone by their silk kerchief and it's zero elasticity actually exerts enough force to break the neck (Isadora Duncan anyone?). Not that it always will of course, but that's an exceptionally strong jerk. And he would have no control once he jerked the scarf. He couldn't lift her by it, he could yank her towards him, but he could not control her landing. Which if she was jerked backward would likely result in her landing on her butt.

There's a whole lot in me on the evils of silk. I had a bad experience.

[Scott Nelson]

There's a whole lot in me on the evils of silk. I had a bad experience.

Black silk stockings?

[Errata]

The fear of the knife would have been enough to control her, or any of the other victims for that matter. With a knife held to her throat, I'd imagine this threat would be enough to shut her up, and also enough to force her to the ground.

I still think she was choked out though

Sorry to hear about you bipolar disorder.

Regards

Observer

Is the threat of a knife enough? Two women had already been killed and mutilated, and some guy orders you to lie down? I mean, if he had hands on her, he didn't need the knife to control her. He could just force her down. He didn't, but there's no reason he couldn't have. If he didn't have hands on her, with a serial killer on the loose why wouldn't a single one of them decide that running was better than lying down to be murdered? Surely one of them would try to run... knives don't control people the way guns do. At least not until the past five years when for some reason people have become more afraid of knives. But that's a new and mysterious thing. I've never feared knives, but then I've had so many accidents that I think I just immediately resign myself to pain when I see one.

Thanks for the sympathy. I prefer to think of it as a bipolar quirk. I've been under control (mostly) for 15 years now. I'm good. It just made my primary school years difficult.

[lynn cates]

Parcel Man

Hello Tom. Permit me.

Parcel Man was likely a club member since:

1. his description fits closely with Eygle/Dimshits

2. the parcel size coincides with the dimensions of Der Arbeter Fraint

Your theory is MOST sensible--devoid of the convoluted nonsense so oft repeated respecting the killings.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Baaaaaaaaa Humbug

devoid of the convoluted nonsense so oft repeated respecting the killings.

Cheers.
LC

Did he actually just post that? I thought I was seeing things.