Team Jack

[Futzbucket]

Errata, I like your thinking. Personally, I never made a fetish connection with the throat, but I did notice there's a fascination with the eyes, at least with Cathrine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly.

Ms. Eddowes had the distinctive markings under each eye, that served to draw more focus to her eyes. Ms. Kelly's face was obliterated, but I can't find any mention of any damage to her eyes themselves. It leaves me with the impression that JtR purposely erased everything, except her eyes.

I do admit that I've tried to see her eyes in her discovery photo, and I can't see them, but wouldn't that be something specifically listed in the report?

[Futzbucket]

"Statistically it's a little frustrating."

I love how you ended your response with this. I completely agree. I believe this is why, after all these years, people are still fascinated with this case. On the surface it appears as a serial killing, but it just doesn't fit what we've learned of serial killers so far. There's some factor that we're missing, that we're unaware of.

There's an unknown element that's changing the rules, which means we must also change the rules until we discover something that fits this behavioral pattern. It truly is a fascinating case.

[lynn cates]

reports

Hello FB. Thanks.

Glad we agree about the colonel.

"we also have very credible witnesses and police reports showing Tumblety made several attempts at purchasing preserved uteri by attempting to pose as a doctor."

Can you point me to these? I haven't seen them. I take it you are not referring to Wynne Baxter's theory?

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

Lynn, it seems you're completely correct!

While it seems to be a rather common belief that Tumblety gained police suspicion from attempting to purchase uteri, it seems that the actual file pertaining to Tumblety (if there ever was one) is missing.

So, even if I am correct, it's impossible for me to prove it.

This is definitely something I need to consider more, and thank you for bringing this to my attention.

I did find one report that is claiming, "Francis Tumblety died in St. Louis on May 28th, 1903 at age 73 and was sent to Rochester for burial. His personal belongings included a collection of preserved uteruses in glass jars...", this means there should be documentation. Now...how to track down the document...

[Futzbucket]

Lynn, it's not looking good for my concept. The only documentation is what was on Tumblety's actual person upon the time of death, which was written by the nuns that were treating him.

As much as I wish I was on the right track, I still must admit it a ridiculous concept that he brought these jars with him to the hospital. If the jars weren't present, then they wouldn't be documented.

I'm at a loss. The only avenue I can think of is to research into the "Jar" rumor and try to find the earliest mention of it, and see if there's evidence of this rumor evolving. Any other ideas?

[lynn cates]

good luck

Hello FB. Thanks.

"This is definitely something I need to consider more, and thank you for bringing this to my attention."

My pleasure.

Good luck with research.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Mike

Hello (again) FB. Thanks.

"I'm at a loss. The only avenue I can think of is to research into the "Jar" rumor and try to find the earliest mention of it, and see if there's evidence of this rumor evolving."

Excellent idea.

"Any other ideas?"

Well, you might chat up Mike Hawley. He is the resident expert on Tumblety.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Question and comment.

Does not the jar "rumour" predate any Ripper business? And who makes up a story about having a bunch of uteri? I could see someone claiming to have a collection, but the random assignation of a collection of uteri to another person seems less likely than someone claiming to have a collection. I go with having one also. My opinion.

[lynn cates]

clarification

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Do you refer to the rumour or the time which the rumour "described"?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Do you refer to the rumour or the time which the rumour "described"?

Cheers.
LC

Any and all.

[Futzbucket]

The earliest I can find is the testimony of Dunhan, in which Dunham describes Tumblety having a row of dressers against one of his office walls, from which Tumblety allegedly stored his collection.

The connection to Tumblety trying to procure uteri in London seems to have started with Coroner Baxter, upon being asked if there was any value in stealing a uterus, saying that he actually had an American doctor inquire about purchasing some, and when told no, the doctor claimed he would be happy to pay a large sum. When asked why Baxter thought the man wanted the uteri, Baxter made a comment of the man being a "quack". It appears Baxter's intent of saying this wasn't to point fingers at a possible suspect, but to illustrate that there were men out there that would pay for a uterus.

Tumblety was known as the "Prince of Quacks", was known to pose as a doctor, and he was from America. I'm beginning to understand how it was easy to draw a line to Tumblety, but I can't find anything where Baxter gave a name or a description of the man besides "an American doctor". Tumblety was an unique looking individual, so I am finding it hard to understand why Baxter couldn't give a better description.

Also...Dunham's testimony just doesn't fit. Tumblety was a con-man, and as such he traveled quite frequently and would have to be able to leave at a moment's notice, which he was notorious for doing as soon as people started turning against him.

How in the world could Tumblety had gained such a large collection, and be able to travel as he did? The jars wouldn't have to be large, perhaps about a pint, but I'm thinking a dozen of these jars alone would weigh just under 20 lbs. To transport these jars, they would need to be individually wrapped in cloth to prevent breakage, which is very possible to do, but it would take time.

At some point in his exploits he would have been forced to immediately leave town, forcing him to abandon at least most of his collection, which would have then been discovered and documented.

Options:
Dunham lied about the entire encounter.
Dunham exaggerated to the number of jars, and Tumblety actually only had a few.
Tumblety coned him and the rest of his diner guests by showing parts of pigs in jars, claiming they were human for the purpose of further convincing others of his medical knowledge.

[lynn cates]

event

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

The rumour was started a good bit after the "event" described.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Baxter

Hello FB. Thanks.

Baxter and his "theory" were rebuffed by the medical community. They, in following up the story, referred its origin to a much earlier date--driving Baxter to wonder if someone had misunderstood and thought they were still valuable.

No known reference to Tumblety--the American doctor was supposedly respectable.

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

Interesting psych note; Tumblety was the youngest of eleven children: Patrick, Lawrence, Jane and Bridget (twins), Alice, Margaret, Ann, Julia, Elizabeth, and Mary. His childhood would have been constantly surrounded by women, and according to descriptions of those outside of his family that knew him as a child describe him as a "dirty, awkward, ignorant, uncared-for, good-for-nothing boy... utterly devoid of education." This description speaks of severe neglect.

This abuse he suffered as a child while surrounded by so many women could cause Tumblety to associate negative emotions to women.

Edit: Tumblety, while young, was known to sell dockworkers some type of pornography. If the pictures in question were of his sisters, this would demonstrate dissociation and a lack of empathy for the opposite sex at a young age. If left untreated, could lead to permanent, sociopathic traits toward women.

[Errata]

Interesting psych note; Tumblety was the youngest of eleven children: Patrick, Lawrence, Jane and Bridget (twins), Alice, Margaret, Ann, Julia, Elizabeth, and Mary. His childhood would have been constantly surrounded by women, and according to descriptions of those outside of his family that knew him as a child describe him as a "dirty, awkward, ignorant, uncared-for, good-for-nothing boy... utterly devoid of education." This description speaks of severe neglect.

This abuse he suffered as a child while surrounded by so many women could cause Tumblety to associate negative emotions to women.

Edit: Tumblety, while young, was known to sell dockworkers some type of pornography. If the pictures in question were of his sisters, this would demonstrate dissociation and a lack of empathy for the opposite sex at a young age. If left untreated, could lead to permanent, sociopathic traits toward women.

Logically speaking that would seem true, but most boys who suffer abuse at the hands of their mother crave positive female attention their whole life. They don't hate women, they NEED women. They consistently choose to surround themselves with women. Often to the point of ignoring male relationships.

It's not universally true, but it is mostly true. On the other hand, watching significant females in his life be marginalized by men can lead to some profound misogyny.