Team Jack

[lynn cates]

PM

Hello Dave. Thanks.

No problem with the directions.

In addition to BSM--whom came from at least as far away as Commercial, I'd like to know whence came PM? Surely he wasn't lingering on that corner 3 hours after the pub closed?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

'Alf ounce of Old 'Olborn please mate

Exactly Lynn, hence my queries regarding the chandlers etc...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

innocent bystander

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Stopping for a bit of tobacco? Looks like pipe man is an innocent bystander?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Dunno Lynn

Still trying to keep an open mind believe it or not...

All the best

Dave

[Futzbucket]

I've been playing with the concept that JtR was actually more than one person, and I've put together a simple timeline that, I hope, can illustrate how something like this could have occurred.

Tumblety comes to London from America for the purpose of procuring several embalmed uteri for his collection. He is denied this, and this infuriates him (it was a 2-month trip).

James Kelly escapes from the hospital, and begins mugging prostitutes to support himself. Kelly wants to escape to America, but it costs about 40-pounds for the trip.

The two meet in a pub, and bond over their shared hatred of women. They strike a deal; Kelly procures uteri for Tumblety, and Tumblety pays Kelly 20-pounds for each. Tumblety also wants a kidney, for the purpose of estimating the social status of the victim, for the purpose of placing the uterus correctly in his collection (which was organized by social class). Tumblety takes Kelly into his room at a lodging house, sneaking Kelly in and out, perhaps by lighting a candle in a window so to inform Kelly the coast is clear.

Kelly meets his first victim, Mary Ann, but he botches the job. He's only able to make a single gash, and he fails to procure anything, forcing Kelly to come back empty handed. Tumblety threatens to kick Kelly out unless he does a better job.

Kelly meets his second victim, Annie Chapman. He's able to procure a part of the uterus, but he can't find the kidney. Fearing Tumblety won't pay him, and probably kick him out with no money, Kelly steals two rings. Tumblety accepts the uterus, but he refuses to pay Kelly. Tumblety later reads about the missing rings in the paper, and demands Kelly give him the rings, which Tumblety himself pockets.

Kelly tries again, meeting Elizabeth Stride. Kelly is almost caught, and he attempts to flee back to Tumblety, who refuses to allow him inside without the parts. Kelly rushes back out into the streets, where he meets Cathrine Eddows. He's able to procure both the uterus and a kidney, but when he comes back to Tumblety, he sees that Tumblety has decided to shut the doors on Kelly, probably assuming Kelly was caught. Kelly, enraged by this, writes on a wall, "The Jews are not the men who will be blamed for nothing", as a way of telling Tumblety, "if I'm caught, I'm taking you down with me."

Tumblety allows Kelly back inside the next morning, and Kelly tries again, this time meeting Mary Jane. Because Mary Jane had her own place, this allows Kelly time to "work", but this passage of time makes Tumblety assume Kelly was captured. Fearing Kelly will rat on Tumblety, he escapes to Paris with the single uterus, leaving his doctor's bag behind. Kelly comes back and Tumblety isn't there to let him in. Kelly barges in himself, alerting the night watchman of the house to his presence, and Kelly discovers Tumblety has fled. Knowing Tumblety planned to make his escape to America from Paris, Kelly follows.

Kelly fails to catch Tumblety, who immediately left Paris for America. Knowing Tumblety went to America, Kelly tries to earn the money to follow Tumblety to America, and this takes Kelly almost 2-years to accomplish.

Kelly makes it to America where he kills Carrie Brown as a way of telling Tumblety that he's arrived. Tumblety goes into hiding with his sister, whom Kelly is unaware even exists. Kelly then spends the next 40-years searching for Tumblety.

[Cogidubnus]

Not so much a timeline Futz as a total fantasy...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

change

Hello FB.

Well, replace Kelly with Klosowski and you'd be Abberline--almost. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

Hello FB.

Well, replace Kelly with Klosowski and you'd be Abberline--almost. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

hehe, thanks. Not for comparing me to Abberline, but for not going out of your way to try to knock my concept.

It is an interesting spin, replacing Kelly with Klosowski, but Klosowski came from a tight family. The kind of control I suspect Tumblety was capable of doing would need someone isolated from such a support system.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello FB. Thanks.

Perhaps the main problem with Tumblety and the uteri is to establish the truth of the story about his collection. The story may be apocryphal.

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

Taken from this very website...

"Someone asked why he had not invited some women to his dinner. His face instantly became as black as a thunder-cloud. He had a pack of cards in his hand, but he laid them down and said, almost savagely, 'No, Colonel, I don’t know any such cattle, and if I did I would, as your friend, sooner give you a dose of quick poison than take you into such danger.' He then broke into a homily on the sin and folly of dissipation, fiercely denounced all women and especially fallen women.

He then invited us into his office where he illustrated his lecture so to speak. One side of this room was entirely occupied with cases, outwardly resembling wardrobes. When the doors were opened quite a museum was revealed -- tiers of shelves with glass jars and cases, some round and others square, filled with all sorts of anatomical specimens. The ‘doctor’ placed on a table a dozen or more jars containing, as he said, the matrices (uteri) of every class of women. Nearly a half of one of these cases was occupied exclusively with these specimens.

[lynn cates]

"Is it live, or is it . . . ?"

Hello FB. Thanks.

Yes, that's the story.

Problem is: is the story real or manufactured?

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

It's impossible to prove, but what isn't in this case? At some point you just have take a leap and hope what little information we do have is accurate.

Personally, I believe this testimony. Tumblety had a collection. Not just a bunch of something, but he was collecting them. As with any collection, the collector feels a compulsion to organize the collection, and Tumblety did so by social class.

[lynn cates]

teller of the tale

Hello FB. Thanks.

Indeed.

Concerning the uteri story: What of the reputation of the teller of the tale? Have you researched him yet?

Cheers.
LC

[Futzbucket]

Hello FB. Thanks.

Indeed.

Concerning the uteri story: What of the reputation of the teller of the tale? Have you researched him yet?

Cheers.
LC

That would be a Mr. "Colonel" Dunham, a man who's reputation of honesty was as tarnished as Tumblety's. Not the most credible witness, I know. I agree that this testament alone wouldn't hold water if you threw it in the ocean, but we also have very credible witnesses and police reports showing Tumblety made several attempts at purchasing preserved uteri by attempting to pose as a doctor.

I then asked, "why would Tumblety travel all the way to London to purchase uteri for his collection?", and the closest thing I can surmise is he was too well known in America for anyone to believe he's a doctor. Tumblety discovered people actually believed he was a doctor in London, and they'd actually sell him uteri. He got away with doing this for years, and then one time not only did someone see through his lie, but the man also informed the police and every place in London where one could purchase preserved, human body parts.

What then would be the motive of collecting these parts? Tumblety was a con artist. I liar from head to toe, but he was a darn good liar. He was described by one person as having the ability to charm entire groups of men. Tumblety also was a practicing homosexual, a practice that was very much persecuted at that time.

I say "practicing homosexual", because I don't believe Tumblety was a homosexual. I believe Tumblety was a manipulator, a parasitic liar that survived through lies and manipulation. His "hatred of women", was actually a cover for his inability to manipulate women. He knew how to communicate with men to get what he wanted from them, but he could never figure out women, who always were able to see through his lies much quicker.

His collecting of preserved, female body parts was his attempt to better understand women, for the purpose of learning how to better manipulate them.

[Errata]

FB:

you describe a scenario with a murderer and a contractor. Or a murderer and an accomplice. In order for a duo to solve several questions, they have to be full partners, both participating in the murder and mutilation. Either taking turns or both working on the body at once. One of the major oddities in this case is a double fetish. He fetishized the throat, and he fetishized that contents of the abdomen.

In all my research, I have never found another serial killer to have two fetishes.

In all my research I have never found serial killer partners (true partners) who have not included torture and/or rape in the murders they committed.

Statistically it's a little frustrating.