Team Jack

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Polly and Annie had blows to the head?
They had scratch marks and bruises made by fingers but ...

But yes, Eddowes didn`t have any marks of a blow to the head. She had an abrasion on her left cheek where her head was held down when herthroat was cut, like Chapman and Nichols

[lynn cates]

bruising

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Polly's bruises were described as possibly by a blow to the head. ("Ultimate" p. 35.) Also could have been caused by hand used to stifle/strangle.

Annie also had peri-mortem bruising.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Polly's bruises were described as possibly by a blow to the head. ("Ultimate" p. 35.) Also could have been caused by hand used to stifle/strangle.

Annie also had peri-mortem bruising.

Cheers.
LC

True, Lynn, but we both know they were caused by a hand over the mouth or chin.

[lynn cates]

strangled

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Know? I consider it much more likely. And that based on Chapman whom we are confident was strangled. (Notice both their tongues.)

So the hand is more likely than the fist--hence the disjunction.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Know? I consider it much more likely. And that based on Chapman whom we are confident was strangled. (Notice both their tongues.)

So the hand is more likely than the fist--hence the disjunction.

Cheers.
LC

The fingernail scratches seal it for me.

[lynn cates]

scratches

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes, the scratches, going in a different direction, likely indicate that Annie struggled fiercely to cause him to release his grip.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

You see Lynn, we do agree on a few things. This and the short upwards cut on Eddowes sternum.. ;-)

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Lovely to agree and be agreeable.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

One of the problems with the scratches on Annie's neck is that they are in the wrong place to be purposeful. They are behind the left ear. If someone was strangling her, his nails would not be in contact with her skin. So he didn't scratch her, and certainly not there unless he had super tiny hands. If someone was strangling her and she was trying to pry his hands off, she would first try to get the pressure off her windpipe, which is in front. Assuming that didn't work, she would try to pry his fingers off, which would be in back. And if she was trying to pry off a ligature, she would try that in front. It's not a conscious thing, but the number one need is to relieve the pressure on the windpipe so she can breathe. And forensic science has watched any number of videos and studied any number of crimes. When strangled, people try to free the front of the throat. It's instinctive.

The scratches shouldn't be where they are, unless her entire neck was scratched up or she scratched herself because something itched.

In order for a head injury to cause either loss of consciousness or severe disorientation, the brain has to be injured. Which isn't that hard. It's a pretty delicate organ. Not seriously injured. Rattled around in the skull will do it. But that leaves signs. Bruises on the brain or meningeal sac, bleeding, broken blood vessels on the interior surface of the skull, broken meningeal sac, swelling, cracks in the skull, crazing on the skull.... Chapman has a bruise above her temple. Which is the hardest part of the skull. It's like the forehead. Pretty thick bone. You have to be hit with a baseball bat in order for it to disorient you. I assure you, a punch to the forehead just hurts. And it usually breaks the knuckles of the person who hits you there. The temple itself is the weakest part. It requires disturbingly little force to shatter that bone. Which is why it's often fatal. The shards of the skull drive into the brain. Had she been hit there, it would have broken, and we would have known.

And heres another problem. It is unlikely he was strangling her while she was on the ground. It's very difficult to do that without putting a lot of pressure on the collar bone. The heels of the hands or the wrists naturally rest there when choking someone. It takes 12 pounds of pressure to snap a collarbone. someone leaning on it is sufficient. It's not impossible to avoid the collarbone, but most likely a killer wouldn't bother.

And what I mean when I say subduing someone, I mean completely. Not just keep them from escaping, but keep their hands from moving, keep their feet from moving. People kick to try and free themselves. That shows up on the ground. Scrapes and gouges out of the dirt, mud furrows dug up by the feet, bloody fingernails and hands from scraping at the floors or walls. These women are dying. Their bodies are going to fight that. If you look up strangulation crimes scenes, they invariably look like a tornado went through. Why don't we see that here?

I am not saying that there are absolutes in any behavior. But there are trends, and barring severe intoxication, there is really no reason for these crimes to not adhere to those trends. So why don't they? Even ten seconds of fighting is a world of fight. Don't believe me? Get a stopwatch, sit on someone, and let them do anything they want to break free for ten seconds. Wear pads. It's an eternity (yes I tried it. it hurt a lot.). How on earth is a circular bruise on the back of the hand a defensive wound? What did she come in contact with? Why didn't that make a sound? Theres a lot of oddness. One woman who didn't fight could be an outlier. But none of them did. That's noteworthy.

[caz]

No of course it never has stopped people from murder, but it vastly reduced their numbers. Case in point, there were 15,000 murders in the US in 2010 but only 46 executions. That's 3 executions for every thousand murders. Without knowing I'll bet there was a lot closer fraction of murders/executions then. And that's why there were fewer murders then. Everybody and their dog knew that. Then.

Ergo it reduced the chance some bloke would foolishly sign on as a murder team member. Then. It's a difficult concept for us moderns to grasp.

Roy

Hi Roy,

When Myra Hindley was helping Ian Brady to torture, murder and bury several children on the moors around Manchester, I believe the death penalty was still available in the UK, although it was abolished by the time they were convicted and sentenced. So it appears the fear of being hanged made little difference in their case.

Often these murdering psychopaths are able to lure an impressionable individual - male or female - into their nasty little web and keep them there to do their bidding. Others manage to find someone who is their equal in evil, which arguably Hindley was.

I wouldn't rule out team Jack personally, but I too have doubts that they would have got away with it forever. Someone operating alone has no problems with the potential liability of a passenger.

Love,

Caz
X

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Yet again failure.

Hello DLDW.

"Blow to head was only for Eddowes." Eddowes? Are you sure about that? Looks like Polly and perhaps Annie.

Cheers.
LC

I was trying to say I was only speaking of Eddowes. Now what I was getting at is there is a massive amount of damage to her face. Swelling and bruising. Would this amount of bruising occur from the cuts that close to death? What about after she had bled out? It's why I take a blow to the face to be a serious possibility. Her face is f

[lynn cates]

swelling

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Hard to pronounce on swelling unless:

1. a doctor confirms it

or

2. an original is used for comparison.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn

Okay, but her face doesn't look not swollen. Would be best to have a pic of her face before the postmortem occured. She def looks swoll up. Your point is taken though.

[lynn cates]

"Why swellst thou so?"

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Yes, a bit of swelling at least. Could the knife hacking have done it?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

professional opinon

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Yes, a bit of swelling at least. Could the knife hacking have done it?

Cheers.
LC

I'm not sure myself. Bruising and swelling require blood/fluid. Eddowes was drained of it so I wonder how much would've been able to occur. Especially if the facial mutilations took place after the throat cutting. Maybe Prosector will provide an opinion for us?