Team Jack

[RivkahChaya]

- why are there MO differences between some murders?

Cripes, it's not like manufacturing an airplane, where it's somehow wrong if it doesn't go exactly the same way every time.

Ted Bundy usually lured women somewhere by pretending have a broken arm or leg, and he usually strangled them, but he beat a few victims to death, he raped some and not others. He raped some women when they were alive, and raped the corpses of others. He killed some women in their own homes. He dumped most of the bodies in secondary sites, but he killed few in remote locations, and just left them.

And that just Bundy. Zodiac apparently was trying to kill people in different way, stabbing, shooting, ambushing, stalking, abducting, because that was more fun for him.

Since we don't know who the killer was, and can't ask him "Why this; why not that?" we can't know what his primary motivation was each time, and what parts of the murders were the "fun" parts, and what parts were the "necessary" parts, either of which may have changed from victim to victim-- there's still a common thread in that opening up women with a knife was fun, but there still may have been a secondary goal that changed from murder to murder, such as "I just want to rip her open and see her guts spill out"/"I want to cut out an organ"/"I want to mutilate her face"/"I want to cut out an edible organ."

On that last one, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's pretty common in England to eat kidneys from, I guess, cows, maybe sheep or goats, and livers as well, but not pancreas or uteri. It might seem a very strange distinction to us, since most to posters probably cannibalism is cannibalism whether it's a cut from a muscle that looks pretty much like a steak, or a human heart. (Frankly, I'm a vegetarian, and it's all gross to me-- I don't find the idea of eating human meat any more objectionable than the idea of eating pieces of a dead cow, or sheep, even though I understand the ethics, but this is why I'm a vegetarian.) Anyway, someone for whom human meat is not objectionable still might find some parts preferable to others, and the preferred parts would probably be the ones that are eaten when they are part of a cow or sheep.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Rivkah,

What have the late-to-the-party Ted Bundy or Zodiac got to do with the price of Ripperological fish?

You cannot retrofit motives, tactics or profiles.

BTW. Try sampling Haggis [sheep's heart, liver and lungs] next 25th January.

Delicious. Grilled kidneys, too.

And with a few Fava beans and a nice Chianti . . .

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

yummy

Hello Simon.

"BTW. Try sampling Haggis [sheep's heart, liver and lungs] next 25th January.
Delicious."

I think we could fall in love. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

They hang people for murder now. Or at least electrocute them. It doesn't stop killers. Never has.

No of course it never has stopped people from murder, but it vastly reduced their numbers. Case in point, there were 15,000 murders in the US in 2010 but only 46 executions. That's 3 executions for every thousand murders. Without knowing I'll bet there was a lot closer fraction of murders/executions then. And that's why there were fewer murders then. Everybody and their dog knew that. Then.

Ergo it reduced the chance some bloke would foolishly sign on as a murder team member. Then. It's a difficult concept for us moderns to grasp.

Roy

[DVV]

Well said, Roy.
The most prolific French serial killer is one Robert Badinter.
Still alive and free to walk.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

Once I know you better I'll recite the completely and utterly disgusting Robert Burns poem I learned by heart as a wee lad especially for the occasion of the Glorious 25th.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

brogue

Hello Simon. Thanks.

I'd like that. Hope your brogue is good.

Cheers.
LC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kzYaIphbzU

[Cogidubnus]

I prefer my haggis darker and bloodier than that...

(And stuffed heart is something I'm very fond of too)

I do most sincerely hope you're not going to fall for me too Lynn!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Pass the clapshot.

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Well, I suppose I COULD be induced to be fickle. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Damaso Marte]

Before Lynn Cates adopts me, I should point out that I think the C5 were all done by the same hand and there was no "Team Jack" - for many of the reasons people have stated in this thread (though, if you tell me that Israel Schwartz is telling the truth, I will drop Stride). I'm just good at understanding and explaining the views of others, even when I do not share those views, be it Lynn, or Team Jack supporters, or Lechmere supporters.

[Errata]

Nichols was probably drunk and tired. Speed and power to strangle. Prob could've over-powered her without much trouble. I was watching an interview of Mike Tyson talking about how to knock opponents out. He said it wasn't hitting them hard that did it so much as getting them focused else where so they didn't see it coming so the brain can't brace for it. Chapman was ill injured and tired. Not much resistance there either I bet. Eddowes may have been grabbed from behind and taken to the ground, throat slit and held in place until she was no longer capable of anything. Although her face looks swollen which could indicate she was struck first. I am not sure how much swelling would've occured since she died shortly after and was drained of blood. Plus the facial mutilations. Need someone with more knowledge to verify of refute the possibility of that. My personal experience with head trauma is a large blow to the head doesn't result in much initial noise.

It was the first thing I looked into. Their skulls were intact, there was no damage to the brain, and there was no damage to the scalp. No bruises, no scrapes, no pulpy spots. They weren't hit in the head. Nor were they drugged, nor was chloroform used.

These women didn't just not scream. They didn't fight at all. Nothing on their hands or shoes indicating they clawed at the ground at all, or tried to push someone off of them. Chapman was killed right next to a fence, and she didn't kick at it or bang against it. They didn't claw the guy on the arms or the face, they didn't get some of his clothes, they didn't even stir up the ground they were lying on. Zero signs of a struggle. And speaking from experience, it doesn't matter how tired you are, how sick you are, when your air supply is cut off you fight like hell. A significant amount of morphine in this country does not go to people who need it for pain, it goes to people on respirators, or being weaned off of respirators to prevent them from experiencing air hunger. It's why waterboarding is torture. And fighting, even silent and ineffective fighting, leaves some sign. And Nichols maybe bit her tongue. That's it.

There's two reasons attacked women don't fight. They think they might survive if they don't fight, or they physically can't. A single man cannot subdue an entire woman without a gun or drugs. He certainly can't do it and kill her at the same time. Try it sometime. Find a willing friend and see what you would have to do in order to hold them completely still while killing them. And without getting incapacitated by a knee to the groin. Did they have cups back then?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo!!

[QUOTE=Errata;267638]It was the first thing I looked into. Their skulls were intact, there was no damage to the brain, and there was no damage to the scalp. No bruises, no scrapes, no pulpy spots. They weren't hit in the head. Nor were they drugged, nor was chloroform used.

Blow to head was only for Eddowes. Her face. Looks hella swoll. Unsure if knife wounds would cause such swelling. My inability to clearly articulate my point is intirely my fault.

These women didn't just not scream. They didn't fight at all. Nothing on their hands or shoes indicating they clawed at the ground at all, or tried to push someone off of them. Chapman was killed right next to a fence, and she didn't kick at it or bang against it. They didn't claw the guy on the arms or the face, they didn't get some of his clothes, they didn't even stir up the ground they were lying on. Zero signs of a struggle. And speaking from experience, it doesn't matter how tired you are, how sick you are, when your air supply is cut off you fight like hell. A significant amount of morphine in this country does not go to people who need it for pain, it goes to people on respirators, or being weaned off of respirators to prevent them from experiencing air hunger. It's why waterboarding is torture. And fighting, even silent and ineffective fighting, leaves some sign. And Nichols maybe bit her tongue. That's it.

Firstly you are dealing in absolutes. Which is usually folly. It's that thing from horror movies that people find stupid. "Why are you just standing there? Do something!" But people are frozen with fear sometimes, or surprised. Which can turn into shock. Which can paralize. Staring into certain unescapable death can render one into stone. And an unsuspecting individual can be subdued quite quickly and effectively/efficiently.

There's two reasons attacked women don't fight. They think they might survive if they don't fight, or they physically can't. A single man cannot subdue an entire woman without a gun or drugs. He certainly can't do it and kill her at the same time. Try it sometime. Find a willing friend and see what you would have to do in order to hold them completely still while killing them. And without getting incapacitated by a knee to the groin. Did they have cups back then?

Only two? Come on. A man cannot subdue a woman? Uh, really you're joking. I could subdue a woman of Eddowes height and weight if I was geared up, if she was the right woman, quickly. With little struggle at all. A battle of wills can last only a second and then it doesn't matter after that. And there is no trying it. If you want to recreate it you have to do it. Attacking someone who knows is not the same. Especially if there is no murderous intent. Let alone follow though. Inexact parrallels. You tend to over-personalise. The only thing that is accurate enough to apply, is the desire to murder. And that is not exactly exact. Sorry, pretty drunk. There is NO vehemence directed at you whatsoever. I have very much respect for you. Wow, I'm on one. Stopping, many apologies if I offended at all. It is not my intent. Intent has much to do with "JTR". As far as I can tell. Which is always very far. My horn has been tooted by myself. Lucky I've had much practice.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Errata

They weren't hit in the head.

Tabram and Coles both had bangs on the head.

[lynn cates]

will

Hello Damaso. Well, so much for your inheritance. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

blow

Hello DLDW.

"Blow to head was only for Eddowes." Eddowes? Are you sure about that? Looks like Polly and perhaps Annie.

Cheers.
LC