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  • #16
    Well, here's a possibility: "Jack the Ripper," or, the killer of 3-5 women in Whitechapel in the fall of 1888 was a two man team, but separately, they each had other victims.

    If you look at the relationship between Henry Lee Lucas, and Ottis Toole, you see that something like that is possible. Their "style" together is nothing like what either of them did separately-- in fact, Lucas probably actually killed just one person on his own, nevermind what he confessed to (pretty much everyone who knows much about his case, and is in any sort of position to have a valid opinion, such as someone in law enforcement, or psychiatry, agrees that he kept up his confessing, because it bought him a lot of privilege in prison, and kept him from execution).

    Toole, on his own, did a lot of sort of messy things that weren't like the things he did with Lucas, and the Adam Walsh case was finally closed a few years ago, when police had some satisfactory evidence that they felt would have convicted Toole, were he still alive, though, he'd been on the suspect list almost from the start, there was just nothing to arrest him on, and then he left the jurisdiction, making the investigation difficult.

    Also, the Hillside Stranglers, who were cousins, had apparently never killed anyone before they killed together, but IIRC, one of them was a suspect in some unsolved stranger rapes, and they both had assault arrests.

    Assuming something like this for the sake of argument, whatever it was that they felt unsatisfied alone, they may have finally satisfied, after being "Jack the Ripper" for a season, and then, as killers, gone their own ways. Working together may have been some sort of evolutionary step for each of them separately. Or maybe they parted over a disagreement that had nothing to do with the murders-- it could have been over money, for example. Anyway, they may each have had other bodies, but separately, different enough from the Ripper crimes that the police never made a connection.

    I'm just playing along-- I'm not married to this theory, and if someone says "Wait!-- it isn't possible because of X," I won't be terribly surprised, or even disappointed.

    But I do think that probably some kind of fixed thinking has kept people from the answer. There have always been preconceptions, whether they were about the lives of "fallen" women, or other Victorian idea about 'toffs and what have you, or later needs to cram the Ripper either into psycho-analytic, psychiatric, or even forensic theories.

    Also, you never know what science may give us. No one could have predicted DNA testing proving the courts made a mistake in 1913, in the Bobby Dunbar case, 91 years after the fact, and nearly 40 after "Bobby Dunbar's" death. I mean, I don't think Patricia Cornwell proved that Walter Sickert killed anyone, but I think her evidence makes a very good case that he wrote one of the letters. So, in the lifetimes of many people who post to this board, there may be something new in forensic science that none of us ever imagined, that will give us an answer.

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    • #17
      Closest analogue I can think of would be the "Beltway Sniper" in Washington DC...turned out to be a father/son duo. Father was a trained sniper, son was not. Many of the survivors of that killing spree were shot by the son, who was not properly adjusting and hit people in non-lethal zones.

      Analogous differences in skill could account for perceived differences in skill supposedly seen in the C5. I think you lose that with a top man and bottom man hypothesis.

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      • #18
        The "Beltway snipers" were not father and son. They were an adult, John Allen Muhammad, and a minor, Lee Boyd Malvo. The adult was a US citizen, while the minor was not, and apparently at some point, the mother of the minor returned to her own country (Jamaica), and left her son Muhammad. Malvo was about 14 then.

        Muhammad told people that Malvo was his son, and he did have children elsewhere, in the custody of his ex-wife, so no one questioned him. Whether he actually used forged papers, his own son's birth certificate, or simply told people that Malvo was his son, and no one ever questioned him, I don't know, but I think he did it because Malvo was here illegally, and his mother was expecting to return, and either she had paid Muhammad, or had a relationship with him, not because Muhammad was delusional, and actually believed Malvo was his son.

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        • #19
          good

          Hello Damaso.

          "Interestingly, I made guy #1 the knifeman on Chapman and Nichols, guy #2 the knifeman on Eddowes"

          Keep up the good work.

          Cheers.
          LC

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          • #20
            What to do about Caroline Maxwell? she never backed down from her evidence of seeing Mary Kelly,and there is another explanation for why someone would be sick in the road, no one in the local pubs said they had served her with drink that morning, cited as a reason that Mrs Maxwell was mistaken, not that Mary may have been lying.
            She was 5' 7" stout and fair complexioned (in some reports) remind you of anybody's description?

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            • #21
              There are a lot of reasons someone might be sick on the road, including food poisoning, GI virus, and alcohol withdrawal. In fact, in a true alcoholic, not getting a drink is more likely to lead to vomiting than getting one.

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              • #22
                Maybe the apron bit was a foil to keep from getting caught. After the murder they go their separate ways. One is close by, but nowhere near Goulston. The other is farther away, and drops the apron at Goulston to keep the cops from looking at people close by in a different direction.

                Like a football fake.
                The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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                • #23
                  Maybe the apron ripped, because they were fighting over who got to keep it as a souvenir.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Good evening Errata,

                    Originally posted by Errata View Post
                    I posted something on another thread about how I don't believe that the killer was actually a pair of killers, even though that would answer a lot of questions.
                    Could you please name a question it would answer? If it were a pair at work.

                    I can't think of a reason why I should discount the theory. Despite the fact that I do. Is there some piece of evidence out there that says that we are definitely looking at a single perpetrator?
                    They hung people then for murder. That's one thing I can think of which works against the 'team' idea. The sheer risk involved.

                    Roy
                    Sink the Bismark

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
                      Could you please name a question it would answer? If it were a pair at work.
                      Not Errata, but here is a short list:

                      - why are eyewitness descriptions inconsistent? Long's foreigner seems different from Lawende's sailor seems different from Blotchy

                      - why are there MO differences between some murders

                      - how did the killer avoid the police / know when to stop?

                      - how did the victims get taken down without any sound?

                      - Israel Schwartz

                      - why did Robert Murphy give a fake name, "Robert Paul", at the Nichols inquest?

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                      • #26
                        Heh heh

                        [QUOTE=Damaso Marte;267488]Not Errata, but here is a short list:

                        - why are eyewitness descriptions inconsistent? Long's foreigner seems different from Lawende's sailor seems different from Blotchy

                        Lighting, vision, clothing, terrain, prejudices, alcohol or drug consumption, lack of sleep, seeing what your brain tells you.

                        - why are there MO differences between some murders

                        Apprehension, location, time, awareness of public and bobbies, weather, alcohol or drugs, frustration, opportunity, planning, illness, injury


                        - how did the killer avoid the police / know when to stop?

                        Knowledge of area, familiarity with beats, weather again, illness, incarceration, death, bordedom


                        - how did the victims get taken down without any sound?

                        Timing, skill, manipulation
                        - Israel Schwartz

                        - why did Robert Murphy give a fake name, "Robert Paul", at the Nichols inquest?

                        Crossmere, Crossmere, Crossmere.

                        Oh, they say sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. It's better to be both. Just a few things worth considering. Many more.
                        Valour pleases Crom.

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                        • #27
                          good

                          Hello Damaso. Good list.

                          Good luck finding the answers.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Lechmere View Post
                            And to bring in a boring dose of reality nearly all serial crime has a one perpetrator.
                            I agree, although I dont agree with the canonical five victims. To that number I would add another 2 or 3. making a copy cat killer or two responsible for 3 maybe 4.

                            I believe JtR also killed Martha and Elisabeth and maybe a few more.
                            It was Bury whodunnit. The black eyed scoundrel.

                            The yam yams are the men, who won't be blamed for nothing..

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
                              Good evening Errata,



                              Could you please name a question it would answer? If it were a pair at work.



                              They hung people then for murder. That's one thing I can think of which works against the 'team' idea. The sheer risk involved.

                              Roy
                              They hang people for murder now. Or at least electrocute them. It doesn't stop killers. Never has.

                              As to what questions would be answered

                              1. It's not just how did this man take these women down without a sound, but how did he take them down without a fight? Without interacting with their environment? It's not just that they didn't scream. They didn't struggle. They didn't claw at their killer, they didn't kick out at the walls or fences. They didn't crawl at the ground, they didn't dig grooves in the dirt with their heels. They didn't tear fingernails off, they didn't scrape off any skin, they didn't get rubbed in the dirt... these women laid down and died. And that's weird. Two people can subdue a woman so she can't fight while she's being killed. One man sort of has to choose between subduing her or killing her.

                              2. It's unusual for a serial killer to have a fetish for two different parts of the body. Jack clearly spent a lot of time on the throat, a lot of overkill, and then the abdomen. Two killers with one fetish each is more common than one killer with two fetishes.

                              3. Two killers would account for why there are so many ripper like murders that aren't considered ripper murders. If they killed separately, you would get half of the qualities of a Ripper murder, but not all.

                              4. It might account for why the Ripper murders simply ended. If the partnership was dissolved, or one moved away or died, the other would have a hard time continuing. Sometimes it causes that partner to devolve so that he gets sloppy and gets caught, sometimes that partner cannot continue especially if he was the submissive one, sometimes the nature of the relationship causes the submissive partner to commit suicide without the dominant. Or he could have simply continued killing, but without the input of his partner, the murders simply looked too different to be Ripper murders. No matter what, he would not be able to continue the pace of the Ripper Killings. It's a folie au deux thing, and without being fed by a partner, his motivation would fail.

                              I mean, a pair of killers aren't the only solutions to these issues, but Occam's Razor makes it attractive.
                              The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                How?

                                Nichols was probably drunk and tired. Speed and power to strangle. Prob could've over-powered her without much trouble. I was watching an interview of Mike Tyson talking about how to knock opponents out. He said it wasn't hitting them hard that did it so much as getting them focused else where so they didn't see it coming so the brain can't brace for it. Chapman was ill injured and tired. Not much resistance there either I bet. Eddowes may have been grabbed from behind and taken to the ground, throat slit and held in place until she was no longer capable of anything. Although her face looks swollen which could indicate she was struck first. I am not sure how much swelling would've occured since she died shortly after and was drained of blood. Plus the facial mutilations. Need someone with more knowledge to verify of refute the possibility of that. My personal experience with head trauma is a large blow to the head doesn't result in much initial noise.
                                Valour pleases Crom.

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