Edward spooner

[Herlock Sholmes]

This sentence perfectly captures the establishment mentality

You’d get a better/longer response if you’d simply make your point instead of hanging out these Pierre-like clues. Tell me what you want me to respond to.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There’s nothing to work out.

This sentence perfectly captures the establishment mentality

[Herlock Sholmes]

Spooner: Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard...

Brown: When I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Murder" and "Police." This was a quarter of an hour after I had got home. ... When I heard screams I opened my window, but could not see anybody. The cries were of moving people going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street, and a man called him to Berner-street.

Spooner: As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay. Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

Spooner: One man struck a match, but I could see the woman before the match was struck.

Lamb: I went into the gateway of No. 40, Berner-street and saw something dark lying on the right-hand side, close to the gates. I turned my light on and found it was a woman.

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

See if you can work it out ...

There’s nothing to work out.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner: Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard...

Brown: When I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Murder" and "Police." This was a quarter of an hour after I had got home. ... When I heard screams I opened my window, but could not see anybody. The cries were of moving people going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street, and a man called him to Berner-street.

Spooner: As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay. Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

Spooner: One man struck a match, but I could see the woman before the match was struck.

Lamb: I went into the gateway of No. 40, Berner-street and saw something dark lying on the right-hand side, close to the gates. I turned my light on and found it was a woman.

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

See if you can work it out ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
That doesn't change anything, and in fact that 'quote' is just a paraphrasing of the Q & A with Reid, recorded by the Daily Telegraph reporter.
The more detailed account is to be preferred, by default.

The interrogation of the 28 probably started shortly after Reid's arrival, at about 1:45. It seems all 28 were checked, before anyone could go.
Recording names, addresses, and whereabouts of all these people, plus being searched, could easily take until 3am.
Does the following sound like Spooner was at the yard for 2 hours ...?

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Not really. Perhaps he stayed until shortly after Phillips arrived, but not much longer.
The fact that Spooner actually mentioned leaving through the club, is a clue on its own.
If everyone had to wait, before being free to leave through the club, what would be Spooner's point in mentioning that he did so too?
Perhaps if he'd said I left through the club with everyone else, or I left through the club at the completion of the search, we could ignore it.
Yet he didn't say anything to that effect. It seems Spooner was special in some unidentified way

Id say that your ‘point’ is baffling but it isn’t of course. You’re again trying to create a mystery where none exist

Spooner obviously mentions leaving through the club because he’s just stated that he’d closed the gates. He was basically saying ‘although the gates were closed I could still leave by going inside and using the front door.’

There was obviously nothing special about Spooner. He left via the front door after being seen by Phillips…..just like everyone else.

Im sorry but you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel with this point. You see mystery and cover-up in absolutely everything.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
It is a very odd error, given he had not long before stated where he was between about 12:30 and 1:00.
Surprisingly, Baxter let it go. Perhaps he could see that Spooner was a bit nervous, and cut him some slack.

By the way, don't you suppose that Smith arrived between 1:00 and 1:05? How does that work if Lamb arrived before Smith and Spooner arrived 5 minutes before Lamb and Diemschitz got to the clock at exactly 1am

By not adhering to exact time estimates. Lamb probably got there around 1.05/1.06 after first turning left into Commercial Road. Smith probably got there around 1.06 (a matter of seconds after Lamb had arrived) Spooner probably arrived around 1.02ish. It’s no stretch to suggest that Spooner misjudged 3 or 4 minutes for 5 minutes. Far less of a stretch than the suggestion that he actually arrived 25 minutes before Lamb got there. His 12.35 can be eliminated. For a start Brown heard Diemschutz and Kozebrodski around 1.00. Michael still uses Spooner though as ‘proof’ of an earlier discovery time which beggars belief.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The 12.35 time be eliminated as an error. He got there 5 minutes or so before Lamb so not long after 1.00.

It is a very odd error, given he had not long before stated where he was between about 12:30 and 1:00.
Surprisingly, Baxter let it go. Perhaps he could see that Spooner was a bit nervous, and cut him some slack.

By the way, don't you suppose that Smith arrived between 1:00 and 1:05? How does that work if Lamb arrived before Smith and Spooner arrived 5 minutes before Lamb and Diemschitz got to the clock at exactly 1am?

“As soon as the policeman came I stepped back, and afterwards helped to fasten the gates. When I left it was by the front door of the club. Before that I was searched, and gave my name and address. I was also examined by Dr. Phillips.”

Spooner doesn’t say that he left as soon as he fastened the gates.

He just said that he fastened the gates and when he left he left by the front door of the club. After he’d been checked by Phillips.

That doesn't change anything, and in fact that 'quote' is just a paraphrasing of the Q & A with Reid, recorded by the Daily Telegraph reporter.
The more detailed account is to be preferred, by default.

The interrogation of the 28 probably started shortly after Reid's arrival, at about 1:45. It seems all 28 were checked, before anyone could go.
Recording names, addresses, and whereabouts of all these people, plus being searched, could easily take until 3am.
Does the following sound like Spooner was at the yard for 2 hours ...?

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Not really. Perhaps he stayed until shortly after Phillips arrived, but not much longer.
The fact that Spooner actually mentioned leaving through the club, is a clue on its own.
If everyone had to wait, before being free to leave through the club, what would be Spooner's point in mentioning that he did so too?
Perhaps if he'd said I left through the club with everyone else, or I left through the club at the completion of the search, we could ignore it.
Yet he didn't say anything to that effect. It seems Spooner was special in some unidentified way.

[drstrange169]

>>The 12.35 time be eliminated as an error. He got there 5 minutes or so before Lamb so not long after 1.00.<<

Quite right.

This is confirmed by Fanny Mortimer, who saw him lift Mrs Stride's head when she arrived (after one o'clock).


>>Spooner doesn’t say that he left as soon as he fastened the gates. He just said that he fastened the gates and when he left he left by the front door of the club. After he’d been checked by Phillips.<<

Yes, that seems blindingly clear to anyone with even just a basic command of the English language;-)

"I helped him to fasten the gate. Before I left I was examined by Dr. Phillips, and gave my name and address."

[Herlock Sholmes]

The gates were shut between the arrival of Johnston (~1:12), and Blackwell (1:16).
Spooner claims to have left through the club. Let's suppose he really did leave immediately after helping Lamb close the gates - say 1:15.
If Phillips arrived at 1:30, and immediately begins examining the deceased, more than 20 minutes will elapse from Spooner's departure, before Phillips can start examining the people.
So how can Spooner claim to leave on helping Lamb with gates, yet be in the yard for enough time that he can later claim to Reid, that he was examined by Phillips? Like this...?

C: Could any one have left without your observing it?
S: I cannot say, but I think there were too many people about. I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

Obviously this doesn't work, yet if the gates were open almost the entire time Spooner was at the yard, then Baxter's question may have triggered a sort of mathematical rationalization in Spooner's mind. 12:35 to 1:15 = 40 minutes, as does 1:00 to 1:40.
This might explain the contradiction of him claiming to arrive 5 minutes into his 30 or so minutes outside the Beehive. Does that make sense?

The 12.35 time be eliminated as an error. He got there 5 minutes or so before Lamb so not long after 1.00.

“As soon as the policeman came I stepped back, and afterwards helped to fasten the gates. When I left it was by the front door of the club. Before that I was searched, and gave my name and address. I was also examined by Dr. Phillips.”

Spooner doesn’t say that he left as soon as he fastened the gates.

He just said that he fastened the gates and when he left he left by the front door of the club. After he’d been checked by Phillips.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We know Spooner claimed to have been examined by Phillips, but that contradicts what he had just said ...

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Then Reid seems to jump in immediately, to assure coroner and jury that Spooner was checked, like everyone else was.

Phillips arrived at 1:30. Reid was later. From the DT:

Detective-inspector Edmund Reid, H Division, stated, - I received a telegram at 1:25 a.m. on Sunday morning at the Commercial-street police office. I at once proceeded to 40, Berner-street. I saw there Chief Inspector West, Inspector Pinhorn, several sergeants and constables, Drs. Phillips and Blackwell, a number of residents in the yard, and club members, with persons who had come into the yard and had been shut in by the police. At that time Dr. Phillips, with Dr. Blackwell, was examining the throat of the deceased woman.

When Reid arrived, the people were still shut in. Phillips and Blackwell were examining the deceased.
So Spooner may well have been examined by Dr Phillips, and then left, yet have been gone by the time Reid arrived.
It is Reid who has the list of 28, and he possibly showed the list to Baxter at around dawn ...

About 4:30 the body was removed to the mortuary. I then informed you (the coroner) verbally at your residence, and then returned to the yard and made another examination.

It is not even obvious that Spooner was on the list. So what was special about Edward Spooner?

That he wasn’t on the premises next to the scene of the murder at the time the murder occurred?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The gates were shut between the arrival of Johnston (~1:12), and Blackwell (1:16).
Spooner claims to have left through the club. Let's suppose he really did leave immediately after helping Lamb close the gates - say 1:15.
If Phillips arrived at 1:30, and immediately begins examining the deceased, more than 20 minutes will elapse from Spooner's departure, before Phillips can start examining the people.
So how can Spooner claim to leave on helping Lamb with gates, yet be in the yard for enough time that he can later claim to Reid, that he was examined by Phillips? Like this...?

C: Could any one have left without your observing it?
S: I cannot say, but I think there were too many people about. I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

Obviously this doesn't work, yet if the gates were open almost the entire time Spooner was at the yard, then Baxter's question may have triggered a sort of mathematical rationalization in Spooner's mind. 12:35 to 1:15 = 40 minutes, as does 1:00 to 1:40.
This might explain the contradiction of him claiming to arrive 5 minutes into his 30 or so minutes outside the Beehive. Does that make sense?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Just reading the inquest testimony again - No. Dr. Blackwell examined the body and its surroundings. Dr. Phillips came ten minutes later, and I had the entrance of the yard closed. This was while Dr. Blackwell was looking at the body. Before that the doors were wide open.
And Dr Phillips - I found Inspector Pinhorn and Acting-Superintendent West in possession of a body, which had already been seen by Dr. Blackwell, who had arrived some time before me.
So it seems that the gates were shut while Dr Blackwell was examining the body IE Before Phillips arrived . But we know that Phillips examined Spooner so it follows that Spooner was still there after the gates were shut. So maybe he wasn't allowed to go earlier after all.
Regards Darryl

We know Spooner claimed to have been examined by Phillips, but that contradicts what he had just said ...

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Then Reid seems to jump in immediately, to assure coroner and jury that Spooner was checked, like everyone else was.

Phillips arrived at 1:30. Reid was later. From the DT:

Detective-inspector Edmund Reid, H Division, stated, - I received a telegram at 1:25 a.m. on Sunday morning at the Commercial-street police office. I at once proceeded to 40, Berner-street. I saw there Chief Inspector West, Inspector Pinhorn, several sergeants and constables, Drs. Phillips and Blackwell, a number of residents in the yard, and club members, with persons who had come into the yard and had been shut in by the police. At that time Dr. Phillips, with Dr. Blackwell, was examining the throat of the deceased woman.

When Reid arrived, the people were still shut in. Phillips and Blackwell were examining the deceased.
So Spooner may well have been examined by Dr Phillips, and then left, yet have been gone by the time Reid arrived.
It is Reid who has the list of 28, and he possibly showed the list to Baxter at around dawn ...

About 4:30 the body was removed to the mortuary. I then informed you (the coroner) verbally at your residence, and then returned to the yard and made another examination.

It is not even obvious that Spooner was on the list. So what was special about Edward Spooner?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Just reading the inquest testimony again - No. Dr. Blackwell examined the body and its surroundings. Dr. Phillips came ten minutes later, and I had the entrance of the yard closed. This was while Dr. Blackwell was looking at the body. Before that the doors were wide open.
And Dr Phillips - I found Inspector Pinhorn and Acting-Superintendent West in possession of a body, which had already been seen by Dr. Blackwell, who had arrived some time before me.
So it seems that the gates were shut while Dr Blackwell was examining the body IE Before Phillips arrived . But we know that Phillips examined Spooner so it follows that Spooner was still there after the gates were shut. So maybe he wasn't allowed to go earlier after all.
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Where Spooner and lady friend were between 12:30 and 1:00, cannot be definitely ascertained by the police in the yard. All the police can do is ask for and record each persons account of themselves. Two people at a crime scene cannot be each others alibi. If that were the case, then any pair of people, or indeed any group of people, could claim to have been in each others company, prior to arriving at the yard, and then be excused. What sort of abuse would that invite?

So that is not how alibi's work. If Prince Eddy's alibi was Queen Victoria, who said he was at Abergeldie, Scotland, then it has been ascertained that the Queen was also there, at the time of the double event.
On the other hand, if two people named Eddy and Victoria are in Dutfield's Yard when the gates are closed, they don't get to leave early by claiming to have been talking outside a public-house, for the half hour prior to being informed of the murder.

I get your point but would Jack [ two of them ], stand on the street corner outside a public house while two Jews run by, and then go back to the scene of the crime ?
He would probably scarper.
Anyway the point is moot
Witness: The legs of the deceased were drawn up, but her clothes were not disturbed. When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.
Inspector Reid: I believe that was after you had given your name and address to the police? - Yes. And had been searched? - Yes. And examined by Dr. Phillips? - Yes.
IE - Satisfactory account of himself.
Spooner may have helped shut the gates because he was the person closest to Lamb, so Lamb just asked him.
Regards Darryl

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Spooner was with his lady friend for up to at least half an hour [ 12:30 to 01:00 ], before he saw the two Jews running down the street from a murder which had occurred from 12:46 to 12:56 [ Blackwell ] of course he has an alibi. His lady friend is his alibi.
Regards Darryl

Where Spooner and lady friend were between 12:30 and 1:00, cannot be definitely ascertained by the police in the yard. All the police can do is ask for and record each persons account of themselves. Two people at a crime scene cannot be each others alibi. If that were the case, then any pair of people, or indeed any group of people, could claim to have been in each others company, prior to arriving at the yard, and then be excused. What sort of abuse would that invite?

So that is not how alibi's work. If Prince Eddy's alibi was Queen Victoria, who said he was at Abergeldie, Scotland, then it has been ascertained that the Queen was also there, at the time of the double event.
On the other hand, if two people named Eddy and Victoria are in Dutfield's Yard when the gates are closed, they don't get to leave early by claiming to have been talking outside a public-house, for the half hour prior to being informed of the murder.