BSM & Sailor Man : one and the same ?

[Bridewell]

So where did the idea he looked like a sailor come from?

"The City P.C. that was (on) a beat near Mitre Square perhaps?"

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the clarification, Jon.

As for Swanson's source for the "sailor" detail, I think the obvious and only answer is Lawende himself.

Best regards,
Ben

The trouble is Ben, Lawende's description never included it, neither at the time nor years later as I pointed out in my post.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

There is simply no way Swanson would have included the "sailor-like" detail in his official police report unless Lawende himself relayed that detail, nor would the police sanctioned Police Gazette have mentioned it. It originated unquestionably with Lawende.

Cheers,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

There is simply no way Swanson would have included the "sailor-like" detail in his official police report unless Lawende himself relayed that detail, nor would the police sanctioned Police Gazette have mentioned it. It originated unquestionably with Lawende.

Cheers,
Ben

Hi Ben.

It would appear that no witness in the Stride case (Marshall, Brown, Smith, Schwartz) identified a suspect as looking like a sailor.
And the Mitre Sq. suspect description (Lawende/Harris?) seemingly sourced through the City Police also makes no mention like "appearance of a sailor", then it is a legitimate question to ask what is the source for Swanson's release?

The premise of this thread hangs on the words of Swanson, but no corroboration exists for the 19th Oct. release of a suspect looking like a sailor.

[Jonathan H]

Except that Lawnde was brought in to took at sailor suspects, the first of whom does not resemble the man he descibed -- and thr witness did not affirm -- but was a genuine seaman.

The second man, Grant, resembled the man he saw so much that [presumably] Lawende said yes.

It's a remarkable moment, if it happened.

A Jewish witness from Mitre Sq. affirmed to a sailor who was found almost murdering a Whitechapel prostitute with a knife.

And ... nothing happened. Nor is there the sense of acute disappointment as there was with Sadler.

Quite the opposite.

Within the same period, early 1895, Swanson apparently said the Ripper was a man who was believed to be deceased and Anderson was saying it was a safely caged lunatic (and according to his son believed that this Jewish madman was deceased).

[Jonathan H]

I think some people are barking up the wrong tree.

Either Knifeman was the fiend -- eg. he had a knife -- or Schwartz did not see Jack at all and had the time wrong.

Most importantly, the poice zeroed in on Lawende because the timeline was so tight, and he had described a man as sailor-like in attire.

Grant had scars and tattoos, the man Lawende originally described did not.

Yet they may have been looalikes.

But then this is a case where everybody is weirdly shadowed by a double, or a double who is not:

Druitt and the Drowned Doctor;

Aaron Kosminski and 'Kosminski', and David Cohen;

Colicott and Cutbush, and Cutnush and the cop Cutbush;

Tumblety and the American specimen collector and Littlechild's Dr T who may have taken his own life;

Sadler and Lawende and Sadler and Grant, and Grant and Lawende;

the official version of the Mac Report and it's non-identical twin the 'Aberconway' version, which itself is a copy of a document long lost;

and of course Sims claiming to be the fiend's double.

[Bridewell]

Not to mention two women who, at one time or another, called themselves Mary Kelly, both of whom were murdered, (probably?) by the same hand.

[Wickerman]

Except that Lawnde was brought in to took at sailor suspects, the first of whom does not resemble the man he descibed -- and thr witness did not affirm -- but was a genuine seaman.

Right Jonathan, but the police genuinely thought Sadler may be the Ripper. That was why they called on Lawende, not because Sadler was a sailor.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

I'm really not sure what you mean when you say that no "corroboration" exists for Lawende having described a man with a sailor-like appearance. If the detail appeared in both a police report and a police-press release (Police Gazette), what more corroboration do we need? There is absolutely no way that a sailor-like appearance would find its way into a police report (City or Met, it matters not) unless the witness in question had relayed as much to the police. And it was Lawende, incidentally. Harris made it quite clear that he got no description of the man.

All the best,
Ben

[Jonathan H]

You have it backwards, Wickerman.

Sadler looked nothing like the man Lawende decribed, except that he was a Gentile -- and even better he was a sailor.

So get the eye-witness in here, quick smart, and not for a line-up but a one-on-one confrontation -- and hope for the best.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I'm really not sure what you mean when you say that no "corroboration" exists for Lawende having described a man with a sailor-like appearance. If the detail appeared in both a police report and a police-press release (Police Gazette), what more corroboration do we need? There is absolutely no way that a sailor-like appearance would find its way into a police report (City or Met, it matters not) unless the witness in question had relayed as much to the police. And it was Lawende, incidentally. Harris made it quite clear that he got no description of the man.

All the best,
Ben

Which police report are you referring to Ben?

[Damaso Marte]

Yes, there is more than enough similarity between BS and "sailor man" to infer than the two may have been the same man. The height, age, headgear, "jacket" are perfectly compatible. Schwartz appeared to have paid more attention to features, whereas Lawende focussed more specifically on clothing. A "sailor-like" peaked cap would be more noteworthy in the City as opposed to Berner Street near the docklands, where sailor-like men were two-a-penny
Ben

Why the change in MO, then? If one accepts BSM as Stride's killer, one has to either drop Stride as a Ripper victim or have a good explanation.

[DVV]

Hi Damaso Marte

For sure, Joseph was drunk that night.

Cheers

[GregBaron]

5'3" to 5'11"...

Remind me. Which witness alluded to a staggering lunatic?

Sorry, my words Bridewell. This is how I would describe a fellow roughing up a woman, yelling at a Jew and likely drunk……..

Oh, come now. Do play along. This is ripperology.

Sorry Lynn, I was one of those in kindergarten who they said “does not play
well with others”….

Hyperbole aside-absolutely. Pretty much anyone can go from being violently angry to calm in a matter of minutes let alone 45 minutes. And psychopath serial killers? Probably could do it in seconds. They are chameleons by nature.

I can accept this Abby, it still seems incongruous…

Also y'all, remember that Levy said the dude stand about 3 inches higher
that the woman, even though of course he didn't see him...!


Greg

[lynn cates]

play time

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"I was one of those in kindergarten who they said “does not play
well with others” "

Hmm, I think the same was said of Aaron Kosminski. But what's the alternative? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC