BSM & Sailor Man : one and the same ?

[lynn cates]

play along

Hello Greg

"As others have stated, we go from a staggering lunatic to a calm Popeye the Sailor in 45 minutes.....?"

Oh, come now. Do play along. This is ripperology.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Knifeman's too tall for Sailor Man isn't he...?



As others have stated, we go from a staggering lunatic to a calm Popeye the Sailor in 45 minutes.....?


Greg

Hi Greg
Hyperbole aside-absolutely. Pretty much anyone can go from being violently angry to calm in a matter of minutes let alone 45 minutes. And psychopath serial killers? Probably could do it in seconds. They are chameleons by nature.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Greg

"As others have stated, we go from a staggering lunatic to a calm Popeye the Sailor in 45 minutes.....?"

Oh, come now. Do play along. This is ripperology.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
You enjoy role playing so try this. Do 3 or 4 pushups while yelling lipski then stand up turn around and start walking. How long does it take you to assume a calm demeaner?

See what I mean?

[Jonathan H]

I am arguing that the man seen pushing Stride does not match Lawende's description of a lither, fairer figure with Eddowes.

Full stop -- they are unlikely to be the same man.

Now, since the man Lawende described was believed likely to have killed his victim with a knife, and since Schwartz in another primary source had described a Gentile-featured figure with a knife (and with a moustache) it is hardly much of a leap to theorise that this man may be the same one.

Except here, of course, where it is not only rejected -- fair enough -- but vehemently and apoplectically rejected as 'nonsense!

[lynn cates]

Ich weiss nicht.

Hello Abby. Thanks.

I'm afraid I DON'T see what you mean.

Cheers.
LC

[Damaso Marte]

I believe that Sailor Man existed, and BSM did not, so no I do not think they are the same.

[Jonathan H]

Interesting.

Certainly the police do not seem to have used Schwartz to the same degree as they did Lawende, apparently twice.

The second time he affirmed, again apparently to William Grant (aka Grainger) who, according to the relevant press article, arguably does not resemble BSM.

And yes, Lawende's Jack-the-Seaman bears a generic resemblance to Druitt.

[DVV]

There may be justification for questioning whether the Mitre Sq. suspect truly looked like a sailor.

That is it, Jon.
It has been pointed out many times. No suspect described on Nov 30 was believed to have been a sailor.
Marshall's man, although having a cap "of the sort that a sailor would wear", had "the appearance of a clerk rater than a manual worker".

All the best

[Jonathan H]

The two Ripper suspects of 1891 and 1895, Tom Sadler, and William Grant, respectively,were both seamen.

I do not think this was a coincidence that the witness the police brought in to confront these suspects, both times -- if that is what happened as we are relying on singular press accounts -- was Lawende, who had described just such an attired man.

[DVV]

As you've pointed out, we have only one newspaper for each case.
If Lawende was really called to identify Sadler, the less I can say is that it was a waste of time.
How could this 50 years old man be Sailor Man, aged about 30 ? - and merely said to be "young" by Major Smith.

[Jonathan H]

Oh, I think it happened alright -- both times.

It is a measure of SY's acute desperation in 1891 over the Ripper that they got in Lawende, over two years later (and then six years later over Grant), and had him 'confront' Sadler.

Not a police line-up, take note.

Just Sadler.

As you say Sadler was a burly, bearded bruiser compared to the younger, lither, smoother figure the witness had reported seeing.

What a long shot!

So important was this moment and so disappointing its outcome that it lodged in some part of Anderson's fading memory.

Instead of being honest with himself and admitting that it was helluva long shot, Anderson's huge ego turned it into a positive identification which only failed because the Jewish witness would not testify against a fellow Hebrew (plus Grant being positively identified has perhaps lodged in the same neuron).

[Ben]

Yes, there is more than enough similarity between BS and "sailor man" to infer than the two may have been the same man. The height, age, headgear, "jacket" are perfectly compatible. Schwartz appeared to have paid more attention to features, whereas Lawende focussed more specifically on clothing. A "sailor-like" peaked cap would be more noteworthy in the City as opposed to Berner Street near the docklands, where sailor-like men were two-a-penny.

Pipeman is a far less persuasive match; he was older, taller, and wearing a different hat. I realise the last mentioned may seem trivial, but what are the realistic chances of the killer being able (or willing?) to change headgear between the Sride and Eddowes murders, assuming the same man was responsible for both?

Hi Jon,

The first description of the Mitre Sq. suspect, 'Redneck', was published on Oct. 2nd,...

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

Yet it had not come from Lawende.

Not directly perhaps, but here we have another example of a police source divulging case-related information to the press before its intended official release. Apparently, the 2nd October description only appeared in the Times.

Evidently, this description was not provided by the Jewish trio directly to the press, or else the rest of their accounts would be provided along with their names. Since this description was only supposed to have been released for the first time in the police-sanctioned Police Gazette on 19th October, it is perfectly clear that a police source communicated with the Times directly (unless this description appears in any other paper?), resulting in the premature release of the Lawende description.

Swanson's report makes clear that Lawende had described the man as having the "appearance of a sailor".

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
Not directly perhaps, but here we have another example of a police source divulging case-related information to the press before its intended official release.

Ben.
This issue of 'the police' not sharing details of their investigation is a Scotland Yard/Metropolitan initiative, nothing to do with the City police.

The description you refer to came from a City witness for a City crime and we know that relations between the press and the City police were considerably more amiable than between the press and the Met/SY.

Swanson's report makes clear that Lawende had described the man as having the "appearance of a sailor".

I raised the point about Swanson being the first to include "appearance of a sailor" in order to pose the question, where did he get that info from?

[Bridewell]

Legitimate

It is a measure of SY's acute desperation in 1891 over the Ripper that they got in Lawende, over two years later (and then six years later over Grant), and had him 'confront' Sadler.

Not a police line-up, take note.

A confrontation ID was permissible and evidentially valid if, but only if, the suspect had been given the opportunity to stand on an ID Parade, but had refused to do so. Nobody can be compelled to stand on an ID Parade - not in the UK anyway.

[Ben]

Thanks for the clarification, Jon.

As for Swanson's source for the "sailor" detail, I think the obvious and only answer is Lawende himself.

Best regards,
Ben