OK whos your favored suspect/s and why?

[Fernglas]

Abberline clearly didn't know what he was talking about.I suspect the police at the time were looking for a foreign suspect and Klosowski was of course a foreigner who had murdered women. The fact that it was in a completely different manner obviously doesn't seem to have mattered to Abberline.

I found, not only in this forum, the notion to exclude Klosowski simply based on his MO as absurd! Yes, a majority of serial offenders just "refine" their typical way of murder, but there are examples of murderers changing how they kill radically. Israel Keyes is prime example.

Just for a moment, let us look at Klosowski outside his MO: He was a proven serial killer (luckily these guys do not grow on trees and being one "requires" a very special state of mind), a sadist (the poison he used is a terrible death for the victim), he had good medical knowledge (Antimon was not well known in Britain at that time, even among doctors), the murders fit to the times Klosowski was in London (it should be remembered that no murder predates his arrival in England, whereas several other suspects resided in London for decades or their whole lifes and there was no ripperlike case after he started to poison), he was a Janusface (one of his victims stated before her death that Klosowski could be really nice and charming, but was a brutal sadist when noone looked), he fits into the various Ripper descriptions (so not being out for e.g. "too tall", "too thin" or "too thick").
When the Klosowskis were in the US, there was a witnessed situation where Klosowski nearly stabbed his wife to death, only the arrival of customers prevented the deed. Besides that, what the Ripper did to Kelly was something which would change even Jack. Even a monster cannot do what he did to Mary and not be affected by it.
This only as a short post why Klosowski should be among the top suspects.

[Mike J. G.]

Besides that, what the Ripper did to Kelly was something which would change even Jack. Even a monster cannot do what he did to Mary and not be affected by it.
This only as a short post why Klosowski should be among the top suspects.

I've never really understood that line of thinking.

There are people out there butchering other people on a daily basis and showing absolutely no remorse whatsoever, in fact, they revel in it. Plenty of real life "snuff" videos out there in the internet age with grinning executioners who make the Kelly murder scene look rather tame.

The idea that JtR was losing any kind of touch with sanity due to his crimes isn't necessarily reflective of reality, unfortunately. He may well have laughed to himself while regarding his work and gave it little more than a second thought while casually munching on his din dins after a session at his local boozer.

[Fernglas]

I've never really understood that line of thinking.

There are people out there butchering other people on a daily basis and showing absolutely no remorse whatsoever, in fact, they revel in it. Plenty of real life "snuff" videos out there in the internet age with grinning executioners who make the Kelly murder scene look rather tame.

The idea that JtR was losing any kind of touch with sanity due to his crimes isn't necessarily reflective of reality, unfortunately. He may well have laughed to himself while regarding his work and gave it little more than a second thought while casually munching on his din dins after a session at his local boozer.

Hi! I think there is a misunderstanding with what I intended to bring across. There are monsters in human form out there, luckily they are very few in number across our globe. Souls even Luzifer does not want, but even those beings without any piece of humanity left in them have some reaction to the sins they commit. Not necessarily loss of the rest of their sanity, it can be the laughter you mentioned or wharever, but never nothing at all.
In the Ripperīs case we have a very quick ratcheting up of the savagery of his murders. What he did to Mary Kelly is well beyond the moral event horizon, there had to be a reaction. Be it ultimate pleasure, horror at himself in a moment of clarity, the wish to repeat it soon, sating the urges inside him, satisfaction at a job "well done", who knows.
Jack succeeded with what he did and with how quick he became worse, there is no chance in hell he would stop after Kelly. But there have never been crimes in London again you could lay at his feet without serious doubt. So he either really lost his last sanity, died from whatever reasons or - changed the way he killed because he knew there was no way he could top this series and get away with it.

[John Wheat]

I found, not only in this forum, the notion to exclude Klosowski simply based on his MO as absurd! Yes, a majority of serial offenders just "refine" their typical way of murder, but there are examples of murderers changing how they kill radically. Israel Keyes is prime example.

Just for a moment, let us look at Klosowski outside his MO: He was a proven serial killer (luckily these guys do not grow on trees and being one "requires" a very special state of mind), a sadist (the poison he used is a terrible death for the victim), he had good medical knowledge (Antimon was not well known in Britain at that time, even among doctors), the murders fit to the times Klosowski was in London (it should be remembered that no murder predates his arrival in England, whereas several other suspects resided in London for decades or their whole lifes and there was no ripperlike case after he started to poison), he was a Janusface (one of his victims stated before her death that Klosowski could be really nice and charming, but was a brutal sadist when noone looked), he fits into the various Ripper descriptions (so not being out for e.g. "too tall", "too thin" or "too thick").
When the Klosowskis were in the US, there was a witnessed situation where Klosowski nearly stabbed his wife to death, only the arrival of customers prevented the deed. Besides that, what the Ripper did to Kelly was something which would change even Jack. Even a monster cannot do what he did to Mary and not be affected by it.
This only as a short post why Klosowski should be among the top suspects.

Why shouldn't people dismiss Klosowski because of a totally different M.O. especially considering Bury's M.O. is very similar to Jack's.

[Aethelwulf]

Why shouldn't people dismiss Klosowski because of a totally different M.O. especially considering Bury's M.O. is very similar to Jack's.

Yes. Chapman is one of the many weirdo freaks that were around Whitechapel at the time, but no way is he a more likely ripper than Bury, nor is anyone else for that matter.

[John Wheat]

Yes. Chapman is one of the many weirdo freaks that were around Whitechapel at the time, but no way is he a more likely ripper than Bury, nor is anyone else for that matter.

I couldn't agree with you more Aethelwulf. Just how many murderers strangle, then mutilate with a knife were there in London at the time do people think there were? Plus Bury fits the psyche profile well. When you add in the fact that Bury buggered off to Dundee shortly after Mary Jane Kelly's murder. Bury becomes the number 1 suspect in my opinion.

[Aethelwulf]

I couldn't agree with you more Aethelwulf. Just how many murderers strangle, then mutilate with a knife were there in London at the time do people think there were? Plus Bury fits the psyche profile well. When you add in the fact that Bury buggered off to Dundee shortly after Mary Jane Kelly's murder. Bury becomes the number 1 suspect in my opinion.

Certainly John. Add to that the police found out he was missing from his lodgings in the east end on the nights in question, and on two of those acted very suspiciously; turned out they also thought he also had the opportunity to commit the crimes. Not to mention he also had an uncanny resemblance to the many of the witness descriptions. You know my feelings on his exit - the man that attacked farmer sounds very like the other witness descriptions, and Bury. Survivor and witnesses = no more Whitecahpel and time to leave.

[Fernglas]

Why shouldn't people dismiss Klosowski because of a totally different M.O. especially considering Bury's M.O. is very similar to Jack's.

Dear John, you are making the widespread mistake to believe that all serial killers only refine their prefered method of killing. While many do so, Israel Keyes or Kurt W. Wichmann are prime examples of serial offenders who used radically different methods of killing their victims.

The Ripper showed medical knowledge, e.g. he used some methods which are partly used in surgery to this day and are not the obvious way to do so if you are an amateur slashing around, that was even rarer to find in 1888 than nowadays! Bury simply did not have this knowledge. Besides, why should the 1888 British Champion in Throatslashing strangle his wife first instead doing what he did with his other victims? Especially since he slept with a knife under the pillow? Bury was a certified a... and the world better off without him, but as far as Jack is concerned, Bury is a red herring.

Further Klosowski, beside him having substantial medical knowledge, is one of the few suspects whose residency dates fit the series very well. No murder predates his arrival in London, "the gap" coincidences with a natural death in Klosowskiīs family, the "main" series ceased when he moved to America for about a year and there were no Ripperlike murders after he started poisoning.

[John Wheat]

Dear John, you are making the widespread mistake to believe that all serial killers only refine their prefered method of killing. While many do so, Israel Keyes or Kurt W. Wichmann are prime examples of serial offenders who used radically different methods of killing their victims.

The Ripper showed medical knowledge, e.g. he used some methods which are partly used in surgery to this day and are not the obvious way to do so if you are an amateur slashing around, that was even rarer to find in 1888 than nowadays! Bury simply did not have this knowledge. Besides, why should the 1888 British Champion in Throatslashing strangle his wife first instead doing what he did with his other victims? Especially since he slept with a knife under the pillow? Bury was a certified a... and the world better off without him, but as far as Jack is concerned, Bury is a red herring.

Further Klosowski, beside him having substantial medical knowledge, is one of the few suspects whose residency dates fit the series very well. No murder predates his arrival in London, "the gap" coincidences with a natural death in Klosowskiīs family, the "main" series ceased when he moved to America for about a year and there were no Ripperlike murders after he started poisoning.

I'm making no widespread mistake at all. Klosowski wasn't the Ripper. Bury may well have been.

[Aethelwulf]

Dear John, you are making the widespread mistake to believe that all serial killers only refine their prefered method of killing. While many do so, Israel Keyes or Kurt W. Wichmann are prime examples of serial offenders who used radically different methods of killing their victims.

The Ripper showed medical knowledge, e.g. he used some methods which are partly used in surgery to this day and are not the obvious way to do so if you are an amateur slashing around, that was even rarer to find in 1888 than nowadays!

There is no evidence the killer had medical knowledge. We see Bond saying he din't even have the knowledge of butcher. Look at the mortuary sketch of Eddowes, prior to being neatly stitched up - she'd been hacked open like a tine of sardines. Even Philips uses very cautious language. The ripper displayed no medical knowledge at in the murder of kelly. The real red herring is the black bag, tall hat doctor killer. It's nonsense.

Bury simply did not have this knowledge. Besides, why should the 1888 British Champion in Throatslashing strangle his wife first instead doing what he did with his other victims? Especially since he slept with a knife under the pillow? Bury was a certified a... and the world better off without him, but as far as Jack is concerned, Bury is a red herring.

It is believed the victims were strangled, some also a blow to the head. Which is what bury did. Bury engaged in piquerism. He even went back to the body after it had 'lost its vital elasticity' and stabbed Ellen once in each groin (tabram). The fact that throat isn't cut isn't significant. The method of killing can vary, but the signature will remain, which it does. As to why he didn't go further? I suspect it was a mistake - he lost his temper and killed her in a rage and then began doing what came naturally. But knowing what the implications were stopped. This was an unplanned loss of temper murder, unlike the planned attacks in whitechapel, where he could just walk away. He had no easy way out - either life on the run or bluff it out (which nearly worked).

People often want to draw on fictional mitigating circumstances in the murders of McKenzie or Coles to add them to the list. The fact is they are pure speculation (some breakdown or other). In the case of Ellen Bury the circumstances are different. A victim known to him by marriage for a year, different location. Also, when the ripper was in whitechapel, his activities were planned to some extent: find a victim, murder, leave. In Dundee I believe he just lost his notable temper and didn't have an easy way out. It was leave and life on the run or try and bluff it out.

Further Klosowski, beside him having substantial medical knowledge, is one of the few suspects whose residency dates fit the series very well. No murder predates his arrival in London, "the gap" coincidences with a natural death in Klosowskiīs family, the "main" series ceased when he moved to America for about a year and there were no Ripperlike murders after he started poisoning.

There is no other suspect that showed a willingness to open a victims abdomen and cut into her privates in a way identical to eddowes. It's there in black and white, read the medical reports. You are willing to entertain a total change of MO against minor differences in the case of someone who was know to be in the east end those nights and missing from home? Bonkers.

I will also add, if it was as blindingly obvious Ellen Bury wasn't a ripper victim, why would Scotland Yard launch what was probably the most thorough investigation of any suspect (that we know about). If it was that easy, Abberline would just have said, 'nah, it's his wife and he didn't cut her throat. End of'.

I'll tell you why - the police at the time investigated objectively. They didn't do what is done here (by all of us to some extent) - that is shuffle the goal posts to discredit one suspect/theory in favour of another. Abberline would have seen Bury had recently arrived from the east end, was a good match to the physical description, and most importantly had hit, strangled and mutilated his wife. what did the investigation yield? I've been through that before, but months of detailed investigation couldn't rule him out, to the point the Police thought he was the killer. Even sending detectives to hear his last words. The answer is very simple.

[Fernglas]

There is no other suspect that showed a willingness to open a victims abdomen and cut into her privates in a way identical to eddowes. It's there in black and white, read the medical reports. You are willing to entertain a total change of MO against minor differences in the case of someone who was know to be in the east end those nights and missing from home? Bonkers.

I will also add, if it was as blindingly obvious Ellen Bury wasn't a ripper victim, why would Scotland Yard launch what was probably the most thorough investigation of any suspect (that we know about). If it was that easy, Abberline would just have said, 'nah, it's his wife and he didn't cut her throat. End of'.

I'll tell you why - the police at the time investigated objectively. They didn't do what is done here (by all of us to some extent) - that is shuffle the goal posts to discredit one suspect/theory in favour of another. Abberline would have seen Bury had recently arrived from the east end, was a good match to the physical description, and most importantly had hit, strangled and mutilated his wife. what did the investigation yield? I've been through that before, but months of detailed investigation couldn't rule him out, to the point the Police thought he was the killer. Even sending detectives to hear his last words. The answer is very simple.

I beg to differ! Bond could not see the Ripperīs knowledge at Millers Court, because Jack was on a trip, having a victim helpless where he could do what he wanted! In other canical 5 cases he displayed(!) medical knowledge! The way he opened up Eddowes was done like a surgeon does and that is obvious because if the Ripper just wanted the inner organs, he could have cut and slashed differently. But he did it like he was in a surgery ward, the same steps and way in! He also handled the intestines like a surgeon does, indeed that is handled the same most times still today!
That is not the work of a total amateur with a scalpel, Kelly is an outlier, because the Ripper had time to do worse than he did with the others. When Jack was under pressure to be quick, he obviously reverted to learned behaviour in cutting! What he did e.g. at Mitre Square is nothing an amateur would do the same. He did it like a surgeon or medic with surgery experience would have done.
And this displayed knowledge disqualifies a lot of the wannabe suspects, including Bury.

[Aethelwulf]

I beg to differ! Bond could not see the Ripperīs knowledge at Millers Court, because Jack was on a trip, having a victim helpless where he could do what he wanted! In other canical 5 cases he displayed(!) medical knowledge! The way he opened up Eddowes was done like a surgeon does and that is obvious because if the Ripper just wanted the inner organs, he could have cut and slashed differently. But he did it like he was in a surgery ward, the same steps and way in! He also handled the intestines like a surgeon does, indeed that is handled the same most times still today!
That is not the work of a total amateur with a scalpel, Kelly is an outlier, because the Ripper had time to do worse than he did with the others. When Jack was under pressure to be quick, he obviously reverted to learned behaviour in cutting! What he did e.g. at Mitre Square is nothing an amateur would do the same. He did it like a surgeon or medic with surgery experience would have done.
And this displayed knowledge disqualifies a lot of the wannabe suspects, including Bury.

Ok, what you've just written is total fantasy gibberish. I'll just repeat something I said up post - the police at the time investigated objectively. They didn't do what you are a pro at - that is shuffling the goal posts to discredit one suspect/theory in favour of another.

You just keep ploughing your own bonkers furrow.

[jason_c]

If I have a favoured suspect I suppose it's Kosminski, but I don't say it's him with any degree of certainty. However, I do very strongly believe the perp was a working class local. I admittedly have little time for suspects proposed by later authors/sleuthers. Authors and sleuthers are hopeless at solving crimes committed by strangers on strangers.

[Fernglas]

Ok, what you've just written is total fantasy gibberish. I'll just repeat something I said up post - the police at the time investigated objectively. They didn't do what you are a pro at - that is shuffling the goal posts to discredit one suspect/theory in favour of another.

You just keep ploughing your own bonkers furrow.

I have to say you are a funny guy! Saying I write fantasy gibberish, when just reading the pathological report of Eddowes and reading about typical surgery techniques of the late 19th century show that I am right. The Ripper went for her kidney like a surgeon or medic of the time would! The same steps and way into the abdomen as they would have done during a surgery back then! Besides, in Mitre Square it was near total darkness, to filet a human open in such a sequence and timeframe alone shows some skill.
That is an undeniable fact of the Ripper "Saga"! Bury on the other hand was not even capable of the signature throat slash.

[Aethelwulf]

I have to say you are a funny guy! Saying I write fantasy gibberish, when just reading the pathological report of Eddowes and reading about typical surgery techniques of the late 19th century show that I am right. The Ripper went for her kidney like a surgeon or medic of the time would! The same steps and way into the abdomen as they would have done during a surgery back then! Besides, in Mitre Square it was near total darkness, to filet a human open in such a sequence and timeframe alone shows some skill.
That is an undeniable fact of the Ripper "Saga"! Bury on the other hand was not even capable of the signature throat slash.

More evidence your knowledge is limited. There is absolutely know proof the ripper had medical knowledge or skill.

The throat cutting is part of the method killing, not the signature, which is what Bury did. He is the only suspect that has a signature match to the ripper.

Just behave Ferny, do one, and stop annoying me!