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  • Aethelwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    good post wulf. as usual you make a strong case for bury. what is the source for burys fair sandy facial hair?
    Steve Earp had compiled all of the descriptions of suspects and Bury - think the original source might of been the dundee courier but his website with all the info on hasn't been working for weeks. Hopefully he will resurrect it at some point. I think the quotes were 'dark hair with facial hair inclined to be sandy' and 'dark hair with facial hair a shade lighter'. Think I've posted it before somewhere but will have to search. Will also post a map at some point, all Bury had to was basically come out of his house, cut across a cemetery, along a street at he'd be at Maidman Street, something like 3/4 mile. It's possible Bury didn't want to loose face for not having any money at his wedding on 2nd April. He could also have just wanted drinking money for the Easter weekend. He didn't get access to Ellen's money until they were married.

    I also wonder about Bury's total compliance with Elizabeth Haynes when threatened with the police a week later. Given that Wilson's attack would have been investigated from Bow, it wouldn't take a very enterprising detective to make a connection between a knife being held to a woman's throat over money, and Wilson

    Bury also stabbed ellen in both groins and I believe Tabram was also stabbed in a similar location
    Last edited by Aethelwulf; 03-19-2023, 08:49 AM.

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  • John Wheat
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    good post wulf. as usual you make a strong case for bury. what is the source for burys fair sandy facial hair?
    I'm with Abby. Great post Aethelwulf.

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  • John Wheat
    replied
    Originally posted by Fernglas View Post
    It is my opinion on the topic from where the Ripper had his medical knowledge, but that he had medical skill is cast Iron by the simple facts of what happened at Mitre Square! Show us the "interested amateur" able to successfully extract a kidney on his knees, in near darkness, in 3-5 minutes, done not leaving a victim looking like a bomb had gone off, but done in steps a 1888 doctor could recognise and would have done similarly himself!

    And once again: The mutilations postdate the successful kidney extraction and knowing not to cut through the navel or fixing the sigmoid area in the rectum was surgeon´s knowledge in 1888, even today few persons outside the medical occupations know this.

    But this is not cast iron proof. You are passing your opinion off as fact.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

    Although it's generally dismissed, given that Tabram was stabbed in the throat when a penknife/claspknife, it's worth remembering Ada Wilson was also stabbed in the throat. Given the account below, where her attacker demands money then blows up with an over the top reaction, I have no trouble imagining the same man stabbing Tabram 39 times:

    She said that she occupied both parlours of the above house, and was about to retire to rest when she heard a knock at the door, and upon going there found a total stranger waiting, who demanded money, adding that if she did not at once produce the cash she had but a few moments to live. She refused to give the money and the man at once drew from his pocket a clasp knife, with which he stabbed her twice in the throat. From the details of the man's appearance given by Wilson, the following will be found a fairly accurate description of the man:- Aged about 30, height 5 ft. 6 in.; face sunburnt, with fair moustache; dressed in dark coat, light trousers, and wideawake hat.

    Her neighbour possibly suggests the man was already in the room, but it seems Wilson had men coming and going a lot so not clear it is the same person IMO. I've seen it written this isn't something the ripper would have done/poor warm-up for the autumn, but it was over 4 months before tabram. 'Criminal versatility' is also one of the ticks for a psychopath. So there is no need to see this as a warm-up for the autumn, he just wanted money, didn't get it and attacked. Also worth noting that the police actually questioned Peter Sutcliffe's father for a blunt force head trauma burglar attack in the 1960s (not realising it was very likely the son).

    IMO, Bury is a very strong suspect for the Wilson attack. He lived just under a mile away and had form for demanding money with menaces (pinned wife to bed and held knife to her throat in argument over money plus other examples), taking money, very short temper, penknife attacker/murderer, slept with a penkife under his pillow. Used and knew prostitutes. Age 28 at the time, said to have fair sandy facial hair, his known drinking could account for the red face. With hat and boots and likely wide uncertainty in estimating heights by witnesses, would fit height (as an example, the man that attacked farmer, seen by many in daylight, was said to be short, short thick fellow, 5'4" but also up to 5'7" in height).
    good post wulf. as usual you make a strong case for bury. what is the source for burys fair sandy facial hair?

    Leave a comment:


  • PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1
    replied
    Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

    Although it's generally dismissed, given that Tabram was stabbed in the throat when a penknife/claspknife, it's worth remembering Ada Wilson was also stabbed in the throat. Given the account below, where her attacker demands money then blows up with an over the top reaction, I have no trouble imagining the same man stabbing Tabram 39 times:

    She said that she occupied both parlours of the above house, and was about to retire to rest when she heard a knock at the door, and upon going there found a total stranger waiting, who demanded money, adding that if she did not at once produce the cash she had but a few moments to live. She refused to give the money and the man at once drew from his pocket a clasp knife, with which he stabbed her twice in the throat. From the details of the man's appearance given by Wilson, the following will be found a fairly accurate description of the man:- Aged about 30, height 5 ft. 6 in.; face sunburnt, with fair moustache; dressed in dark coat, light trousers, and wideawake hat.

    Her neighbour possibly suggests the man was already in the room, but it seems Wilson had men coming and going a lot so not clear it is the same person IMO. I've seen it written this isn't something the ripper would have done/poor warm-up for the autumn, but it was over 4 months before tabram. 'Criminal versatility' is also one of the ticks for a psychopath. So there is no need to see this as a warm-up for the autumn, he just wanted money, didn't get it and attacked. Also worth noting that the police actually questioned Peter Sutcliffe's father for a blunt force head trauma burglar attack in the 1960s (not realising it was very likely the son).

    IMO, Bury is a very strong suspect for the Wilson attack. He lived just under a mile away and had form for demanding money with menaces (pinned wife to bed and held knife to her throat in argument over money plus other examples), taking money, very short temper, penknife attacker/murderer, slept with a penkife under his pillow. Used and knew prostitutes. Age 28 at the time, said to have fair sandy facial hair, his known drinking could account for the red face. With hat and boots and likely wide uncertainty in estimating heights by witnesses, would fit height (as an example, the man that attacked farmer, seen by many in daylight, was said to be short, short thick fellow, 5'4" but also up to 5'7" in height).

    Your theory is fine if one believes Ada Wilson's story about an attempted robbery.

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  • Aethelwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post
    I often wonder if we are missing a trick with the Martha Tabram murder. If, as many do, we believe she was a victim of JTR then is it possible that the soldier who was with Tabram that night is our killer? At 5:30am in George Yard buildings Dr Kileen examined the body and determined she had been dead for 'about 3 hours' so roughly 2:30am.

    At approximately 2am PC Barrett spoke with a soldier loitering near the North entrance of George Yard. When approached he said he was 'waiting for his mate who had gone off with a girl'. Now we have no way of knowing if this girl/woman was Tabram but it is very interesting that this happened so close to the presumed TOD(not a perfect estimation but the mitigating factors present in other cases are not as pronounced- I.e temperature, extent of mutiliation so might be close enough). We have some evidence Tabram was in the company of soldiers prior to this encounter albeit a few hours had passed. Any thoughts?
    Although it's generally dismissed, given that Tabram was stabbed in the throat when a penknife/claspknife, it's worth remembering Ada Wilson was also stabbed in the throat. Given the account below, where her attacker demands money then blows up with an over the top reaction, I have no trouble imagining the same man stabbing Tabram 39 times:

    She said that she occupied both parlours of the above house, and was about to retire to rest when she heard a knock at the door, and upon going there found a total stranger waiting, who demanded money, adding that if she did not at once produce the cash she had but a few moments to live. She refused to give the money and the man at once drew from his pocket a clasp knife, with which he stabbed her twice in the throat. From the details of the man's appearance given by Wilson, the following will be found a fairly accurate description of the man:- Aged about 30, height 5 ft. 6 in.; face sunburnt, with fair moustache; dressed in dark coat, light trousers, and wideawake hat.

    Her neighbour possibly suggests the man was already in the room, but it seems Wilson had men coming and going a lot so not clear it is the same person IMO. I've seen it written this isn't something the ripper would have done/poor warm-up for the autumn, but it was over 4 months before tabram. 'Criminal versatility' is also one of the ticks for a psychopath. So there is no need to see this as a warm-up for the autumn, he just wanted money, didn't get it and attacked. Also worth noting that the police actually questioned Peter Sutcliffe's father for a blunt force head trauma burglar attack in the 1960s (not realising it was very likely the son).

    IMO, Bury is a very strong suspect for the Wilson attack. He lived just under a mile away and had form for demanding money with menaces (pinned wife to bed and held knife to her throat in argument over money plus other examples), taking money, very short temper, penknife attacker/murderer, slept with a penkife under his pillow. Used and knew prostitutes. Age 28 at the time, said to have fair sandy facial hair, his known drinking could account for the red face. With hat and boots and likely wide uncertainty in estimating heights by witnesses, would fit height (as an example, the man that attacked farmer, seen by many in daylight, was said to be short, short thick fellow, 5'4" but also up to 5'7" in height).

    Leave a comment:


  • Fernglas
    replied
    Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

    This is not cast iron proof. It's your opinion.
    It is my opinion on the topic from where the Ripper had his medical knowledge, but that he had medical skill is cast Iron by the simple facts of what happened at Mitre Square! Show us the "interested amateur" able to successfully extract a kidney on his knees, in near darkness, in 3-5 minutes, done not leaving a victim looking like a bomb had gone off, but done in steps a 1888 doctor could recognise and would have done similarly himself!

    And once again: The mutilations postdate the successful kidney extraction and knowing not to cut through the navel or fixing the sigmoid area in the rectum was surgeon´s knowledge in 1888, even today few persons outside the medical occupations know this.


    Leave a comment:


  • John Wheat
    replied
    Originally posted by Fernglas View Post
    I´ve been lurking in this forum for many years, but to this day it amazes me how willfully blind ripperlogists can be to some of the still existing evidence!
    Let us take a look at Mitre Square and the circumstances of the murder there. We have a victim prone on the ground (not on a surgery table), in near total darkness (there were no handheld strong lights at the time) with a murderer hellbent on getting out a kidney before a witness or the bobby on his beat comes in. There was significant pressure on Jack to be really quick and he was. Despite the abomiable circumstances he extracted the kidney in 3-5 minutes and NOT slashing about, BUT in a way recognisable and retracable by a doctor! And more, despite the victim dead, the Ripper circumvented the navel, something done with living persons for several reasons, none of which applies to the dead. He went into Kathy´s body the way a doctor or medic of this era did, Dr. Phillips could retrace the Ripper´s steps and knew them!
    To show the Ripper had knowledge very rare in 1888, a little history on kidney surgery: The first planned and successful extraction of a kidney from a living patient was done by Heidelberg surgeon Gustav Simon on 2nd August 1869! The first fully successful fixing of a wandering kidney was in 1881 by surgeon Eugen Hahn. This was a young area of medical expertise. The very helpful discovery of the Röntgen rays by Wilhelm Röntgen came only in 1895. (The first real Röntgen picture was a hand of his wife, this picture can be seen in the Röntgen Museum in Würzburg. If you are in Würzburg someday, you should take a look)

    The Ripper went into Eddowes body like a surgeon or medic of his time, the newer kidney surgery options by German surgeons Casper, Israel and Richter were either brand new or still developed. Jack circumvented the navel, thoroughly fixed the sigmoid area of the intestines into the rectum, that is something NOT done by butchers or interested amateurs. That was surgeons knowledge in 1888!
    And it should be mentioned that going by the post mortem of Dr. Phillips the mutilations postdate(!) the kidney extraction. It is a coin toss if the Ripper could not surpress his deranged impulses any longer or if it was a deliberate attempt to obfuscate his medical skills with "shoddy work" and mutilation.

    In my honest opinion, going by the way he did the kidney extraction and under what circumstances he did it, the Ripper was either a doctor, medic or maybe part of a mortuary staff.

    This is not cast iron proof. It's your opinion.

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  • DJA
    replied
    Perhaps all three.

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  • Fernglas
    replied
    Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

    What is this cast iron proof the Ripper had medical skill?
    I´ve been lurking in this forum for many years, but to this day it amazes me how willfully blind ripperlogists can be to some of the still existing evidence!
    Let us take a look at Mitre Square and the circumstances of the murder there. We have a victim prone on the ground (not on a surgery table), in near total darkness (there were no handheld strong lights at the time) with a murderer hellbent on getting out a kidney before a witness or the bobby on his beat comes in. There was significant pressure on Jack to be really quick and he was. Despite the abomiable circumstances he extracted the kidney in 3-5 minutes and NOT slashing about, BUT in a way recognisable and retracable by a doctor! And more, despite the victim dead, the Ripper circumvented the navel, something done with living persons for several reasons, none of which applies to the dead. He went into Kathy´s body the way a doctor or medic of this era did, Dr. Phillips could retrace the Ripper´s steps and knew them!
    To show the Ripper had knowledge very rare in 1888, a little history on kidney surgery: The first planned and successful extraction of a kidney from a living patient was done by Heidelberg surgeon Gustav Simon on 2nd August 1869! The first fully successful fixing of a wandering kidney was in 1881 by surgeon Eugen Hahn. This was a young area of medical expertise. The very helpful discovery of the Röntgen rays by Wilhelm Röntgen came only in 1895. (The first real Röntgen picture was a hand of his wife, this picture can be seen in the Röntgen Museum in Würzburg. If you are in Würzburg someday, you should take a look)

    The Ripper went into Eddowes body like a surgeon or medic of his time, the newer kidney surgery options by German surgeons Casper, Israel and Richter were either brand new or still developed. Jack circumvented the navel, thoroughly fixed the sigmoid area of the intestines into the rectum, that is something NOT done by butchers or interested amateurs. That was surgeons knowledge in 1888!
    And it should be mentioned that going by the post mortem of Dr. Phillips the mutilations postdate(!) the kidney extraction. It is a coin toss if the Ripper could not surpress his deranged impulses any longer or if it was a deliberate attempt to obfuscate his medical skills with "shoddy work" and mutilation.

    In my honest opinion, going by the way he did the kidney extraction and under what circumstances he did it, the Ripper was either a doctor, medic or maybe part of a mortuary staff.


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  • Sunny Delight
    replied
    Originally posted by Damaso Marte View Post

    I'm very open to the idea of Tabram as a Ripper victim, but I think that soldier is about as real as Astrakhan Man.
    Funny enough I actually see Astrakhan man as the prime suspect. I was throwing the soldier idea out there for discussion really. For me though AK man is the most likely to be JTR. The one issue I often have with those who dismiss it is a) they can never give an adequate alternative to the man see by Sarah Lewis at the spot Hutchinson said he was, at the time he said he was and doing what he said he was and b) AK man's attire although very smart was not as outrageous as many proclaim. Have a look at Booth's map in 1889. There are many termed 'middle class- well to do'. The entire immediate area around Dorset Street on Commercial Street was almost entirely of this class. It may have been unusual that a man in this attire associate with a prostitute- it would not necessarily be the case that a man in such attire could never have been seen in the area.

    I think one of the main reasons for JTR's inactivity before striking in July 1889 was the suggestion in the Hutchinson newspaper interview that he was likely seen at Petticoat Lane market on the Sunday after Mary Kelly's death and that Hutchinson stated he could swear to him anywhere. This must have been extremely worrying. Say for instance JTR had been at the market on the Sunday and knew he had been spotted. Of course there were other reasons behind the inactivity in my opinion- increased Police patrols, insatiable fantasies subdued due to the ferocity of Mary Kelly's death but I see Hutchinsons emergence as part of that.

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  • Pcdunn
    replied
    Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

    Yes I know all that. Call me narrow minded, but for some reason I'm having a bit of difficulty with the idea of JTR killing women for cats' meat purposes.
    Ah, I see. Fair enough. It is a bit too Hammer House horror film-like.

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  • Aethelwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post

    It's true that some Victorians made a living by buying parts of butchered animals (organs, offal, etc) to cook up and sell as food for cats and dogs.
    You'll hear more about this on the Charles Lechmere pages.
    Yes I know all that. Call me narrow minded, but for some reason I'm having a bit of difficulty with the idea of JTR killing women for cats' meat purposes.

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  • Damaso Marte
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post
    I often wonder if we are missing a trick with the Martha Tabram murder. If, as many do, we believe she was a victim of JTR then is it possible that the soldier who was with Tabram that night is our killer? At 5:30am in George Yard buildings Dr Kileen examined the body and determined she had been dead for 'about 3 hours' so roughly 2:30am.

    At approximately 2am PC Barrett spoke with a soldier loitering near the North entrance of George Yard. When approached he said he was 'waiting for his mate who had gone off with a girl'. Now we have no way of knowing if this girl/woman was Tabram but it is very interesting that this happened so close to the presumed TOD(not a perfect estimation but the mitigating factors present in other cases are not as pronounced- I.e temperature, extent of mutiliation so might be close enough). We have some evidence Tabram was in the company of soldiers prior to this encounter albeit a few hours had passed. Any thoughts?
    I'm very open to the idea of Tabram as a Ripper victim, but I think that soldier is about as real as Astrakhan Man.

    Leave a comment:


  • Indian Harry
    replied
    Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

    You weren't joking then?
    No. To me taking organs as some weird kind of fetish or to sell as scientific specimens isn't any more probable then using them in cats' meats... so I think it's a reasonable theory. It was the reoccurence of cats' meats in the ripper 'material' that got me thinking this way.

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