OK whos your favored suspect/s and why?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

OK. look at these two pics while running away from a man with a knife who has tried to cut your throat & tell me which one is sunburn & which one is eczema? In fact look at them from a sitting position for as long as you like. Ada Wilson wasn't a dermatologist. She was entirely unqualified to diagnose a skin condition. She knows sunburn causes blotchy red faces. So that's what she calls it.

But you then went on - before deleting the comments - to ask why the man would have had a sunburnt face in Whitechapel in the month of March.

That is a very pertinent question and one which I asked myself long ago.

I imagine that you intended the question to negate the case for the man having sunburn and to support your contention that he had eczema instead.

You then answered your own question, about how he might have acquired sunburn, so satisfactorily - with the same answer that I had long ago come up with myself - that you actually negated your own argument that the man had eczema.

And that, presumably, is why you deleted the comments.

Since you raised the issue of eczema, I would pose a slightly different question: why would a man suffering from facial eczema in Whitechapel, in the month of March, be wearing a wide-brimmed hat?

The answer is that he would have no particular reason to wear a wide brimmed hat if he had eczema all over his face, but he would have needed a wide brimmed hat in the place from which he had recently come and where his face had been burnt by the sun.

[JeffHamm]

I think Aman is a Red-Herring, he left before the murder, if we take all the statements into account. The press did report that witnesses were subsequently found who stated Kelly was seen out on the streets between 2-3 am that morning. Then of course we have Kennedy who saw Kelly outside the Britannia about 3:00 am.
Aman is just a distraction, he left the scene, Kelly left Millers Court, and Hutch left Dorset St.
It's the man Kelly was seen talking to outside the Britannia that we should be focused on - in my opinion.

Hi Wickerman,

Yes, those reports are interesting, particularly as one could imagine a series of events where Kelly and Britannia Man go back to her room, she undresses for him, and then he murders her, all somewhere around 3:00-3:30 ish. That fits with the cry of Murder heard in the early hours, and the footsteps leaving the area after that. Still leaves the report of her seen around 10 am awkward to explain, but something like that reduces the number of dismissed sightings, might explain where she got her meal of fish and potatoes from, and ties together some of the other bits of information that otherwise are dismissed as irrelevant to the case.

As I recall, the description of the man outside the Britannia is not inconsistent with the "Bethnal Green Botherer." I know we have limited information on that fellow, but he does intrigue me. I believe you've introduced him to the boards, and was wondering if you've ever posted the collection of information on him and other potential sightings? I know there are various bits and pieces scattered over the boards, but it would be nice to have a single post that brings all the potential sightings together. I know some, like Britannia Man, are not definitively the same person, but given how little we know about BGB, it might be interesting to start with the initial report, and then compare that with all of the descriptions from the case and others that you've noticed with interest? I'm presuming that you may have done something like this for yourself already, and if so would be very interested in seeing what you've come up with (would be suited to its own thread in my opinion). Of course, if you've not got the information readily to hand though, it might be require more effort than it's worth particularly as I get the impression you, like myself, are intrigued by him but not pushing him as the definitive solution.

- Jeff

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I had just finished reading your speculation about how Ada Wilson's assailant may have acquired his sunburn, and was about to reply, when I noticed that your comments had disappeared.

Did you edit them out and may I ask why?

[Chava]

I suggest that the eyewitness evidence of Ada Wilson, who must have seen the man close up and from the front, should be taken at face value, and that the man was sunburnt.

Furthermore, since my critics have argued that my description of the man seen by Lawende as fair-haired is incorrect because his head hair might have been of a different colour from his moustache, I would point out that according to the eyewitness testimony, the man who attacked Ada Wilson had both a fair moustache and fair head hair, which is what one would expect.

Evidence is, I suggest, to be taken at face value unless there is reason not to believe it.

OK. look at these two pics while running away from a man with a knife who has tried to cut your throat & tell me which one is sunburn & which one is eczema? In fact look at them from a sitting position for as long as you like. Ada Wilson wasn't a dermatologist. She was entirely unqualified to diagnose a skin condition. She knows sunburn causes blotchy red faces. So that's what she calls it.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You are simply unbelievable IP2. 'Does it not concern you that he was two and a half inches shorter than the 'fair young man'?'. Do everyone a favour and do one and take your bizzare brand of anlaysis with you.

I will quote something else that made laugh out loud that was directed at you:

'let me engage properly with ignoring you'. Only sensible thing Pike has ever said.

Good luck hunting down your little nebulous chummykins Meatball Sven or Magnus or whatever he's called.

Someone some time ago suggested that Jacob Levy was the man seen by Lawende.

I pointed out that Levy was 5 ft 3 ins tall, which made him between four and five inches shorter than Lawende's estimate.

My comment received a vote from someone who evidently takes evidence more seriously than you do and did not think that my obviously-relevant observation called for a new round of insults.

As I have pointed out, whereas Wilson's assailant was described as fair, your candidate had dark hair and a dark complexion.

Your candidate was also 2 1/2 inches shorter than the estimated height of Wilson's assailant.

It was you who referred to Ada Wilson's evidence in # 244 when you wrote of your candidate's 'good fit to description'.

When it is pointed out that your candidate's physical features do not match the descriptions of Ada Wilson's assailant, you launch a personal attack on me.

Personal attack is not a substitute for reasoned argument, and as anyone reading our exchanges can readily see, you lost the argument.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Rose Bierman, who saw the assailant as he made his escape, described him as a 'fair young man'.

She must, presumably, have seen him in profile and from behind, and been referring to his head hair.

If Bury had dark facial hair, then it appears he was not the assailant.

I would also point out that the official categorisation of the assault as an attempted robbery is very misleading, as it is quite clear that Ada Wilson thought the man was a customer.

I meant 'head hair', not 'facial hair.'

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You are simply unbelievable IP2. 'Does it not concern you that he was two and a half inches shorter than the 'fair young man'?'. Do everyone a favour and do one and take your bizzare brand of anlaysis with you.

I will quote something else that made laugh out loud that was directed at you:

'let me engage properly with ignoring you'. Only sensible thing Pike has ever said.

Good luck hunting down your little nebulous chummykins Meatball Sven or Magnus or whatever he's called.

Your comments are so gratuitously insulting that they do not merit a reply, but I refer anyone who has read them to my # 246, the substance of which you are evidently incapable of refuting.

You cannot come up with a sensible answer and you therefore resort to insult.

Readers of the thread Who were they?, to which you refer, may note that you are behind with events.

The contributors there who were until recently insulting me stopped doing so and instead engaged me in sensible discussion.

It is too bad you are not doing likewise.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I would say this attack at the start of the year close to bury with methods he used (demanding money with violence) and weapon he used, and Mylett at the end of the year close to Bury with a method that bears a near exact correspondence with how he strangled his wife is a bit of a clue IMO. Added to the mutliations of his wife that give a link to the mainstream victims.

I don't believe stabbing someone in the throat twice on them failing to yield money is a normal reponse either. It's someone with an explosive unreasobale temper and could link to the random attacks on Millwood and Green possibly.

I am not going to return your 'compliment' about the standard of my analysis, but I would point out that there is every reason to believe that Ada Wilson was a prostitute, that she brought her assailant home with her as a supposed client, and that her story that the man attacked her after demanding money when she opened the door to him was made up in order to cover up the true circumstances in which they met.

She was attacked by a psychopath who posed as a client and the eyewitness testimony of Rose Bierman leaves no room for doubt about that.

[Aethelwulf]

Please see my replies below.

You are simply unbelievable IP2. 'Does it not concern you that he was two and a half inches shorter than the 'fair young man'?'. Do everyone a favour and do one and take your bizzare brand of anlaysis with you.

I will quote something else that made laugh out loud that was directed at you:

'let me engage properly with ignoring you'. Only sensible thing Pike has ever said.

Good luck hunting down your little nebulous chummykins Meatball Sven or Magnus or whatever he's called.

[Aethelwulf]

Your brand of analysis is simply ridiculous. Re-read the post bury had sandy facial hair. Fair young is just a subjective term. He was wearing a hat what is to say fair doesn't refer to facial hair. Bury caught an std from someone not his wife and passed it on to her in may 1888 so likely using prostitutes and met his wife in Martin's brothel. Man with very poor behavioural controls, money motivated, same weapon, good fit to description, lived, very close, went on to murder, probs a psychopath Imo. Can't say it was defo him but a far better bet than any other suspect, unless there was a Pickford's depot in bow.

I would say this attack at the start of the year close to bury with methods he used (demanding money with violence) and weapon he used, and Mylett at the end of the year close to Bury with a method that bears a near exact correspondence with how he strangled his wife is a bit of a clue IMO. Added to the mutliations of his wife that give a link to the mainstream victims.

I don't believe stabbing someone in the throat twice on them failing to yield money is a normal reponse either. It's someone with an explosive unreasobale temper and could link to the random attacks on Millwood and Green possibly.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

Your brand of analysis is simply ridiculous.

Thank you for the compliment.



Fair young is just a subjective term.


All witness descriptions are subjective.

What do you imagine the witness was referring to, having seen the man in profile and from behind?

Do you imagine she meant that he was handsome?

Are you seriously suggesting that when the two witnesses used the adjective 'fair', they meant different things?



He was wearing a hat what is to say fair doesn't refer to facial hair.


I was referring to head hair, not facial hair.

A wideawake hat would not have prevented the witness from assessing the colour of the man's head hair.

I have not yet seen anyone here question how Elizabeth Long was able to describe a man's hair as dark, even though he was wearing a hat.

Or do you think her use of 'dark' was subjective, that she was not referring to his hair, and that he may have been blond?



Bury caught an std from someone not his wife and passed it on to her in may 1888 so likely using prostitutes and met his wife in Martin's brothel. Man with very poor behavioural controls, money motivated, same weapon, good fit to description, lived, very close, went on to murder, probs a psychopath Imo. Can't say it was defo him but a far better bet than any other suspect, unless there was a Pickford's depot in bow


Does it not concern you that he was two and a half inches shorter than the 'fair young man'?

When you write 'probs a psychopath imo', are those just subjective terms?


One more thing: the witness did not actually describe the assailant as a 'fair young man' but as a 'young fair man'.

Is it not obvious that she was referring to his hair and not just his complexion?

If you do think she was referring only to his complexion, I would point out that your candidate had a dark complexion.

[Aethelwulf]

age 30

Just correcting myself Bury would have been 28 in March 1888 and turned 29 at the end of May '88.

[Aethelwulf]

Rose Bierman, who saw the assailant as he made his escape, described him as a 'fair young man'.

She must, presumably, have seen him in profile and from behind, and been referring to his head hair.

If Bury had dark facial hair, then it appears he was not the assailant.

I would also point out that the official categorisation of the assault as an attempted robbery is very misleading, as it is quite clear that Ada Wilson thought the man was a customer.

Your brand of analysis is simply ridiculous. Re-read the post bury had sandy facial hair. Fair young is just a subjective term. He was wearing a hat what is to say fair doesn't refer to facial hair. Bury caught an std from someone not his wife and passed it on to her in may 1888 so likely using prostitutes and met his wife in Martin's brothel. Man with very poor behavioural controls, money motivated, same weapon, good fit to description, lived, very close, went on to murder, probs a psychopath Imo. Can't say it was defo him but a far better bet than any other suspect, unless there was a Pickford's depot in bow.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I haven't seen fair hair described, only:

From the details of the man's appearance given by Wilson, the following will be found a fairly accurate description of the man:- Aged about 30, height 5 ft. 6 in.; face sunburnt, with fair moustache; dressed in dark coat, light trousers, and wideawake hat. Detective-Inspectors Wildey and Dillworth are looking for him. It is thought impossible that the injured woman can recover.

Facial hair being different to hair is actually common and has a genetic explanation. Google it. As I said before, bury, all of whose main addresses in bow were under a mile from Wilson's address in bow, repeatedly assaulted his wife over money and had dark hair and facial hair inclined to be sandy. Owned a couple of penknives, 30, probs red face through drinking also just been sacked and owed former boss thousands of pounds in today's money.

Rose Bierman, who saw the assailant as he made his escape, described him as a 'fair young man'.

She must, presumably, have seen him in profile and from behind, and been referring to his head hair.

If Bury had dark facial hair, then it appears he was not the assailant.

I would also point out that the official categorisation of the assault as an attempted robbery is very misleading, as it is quite clear that Ada Wilson thought the man was a customer.

[Aethelwulf]

I suggest that the eyewitness evidence of Ada Wilson, who must have seen the man close up and from the front, should be taken at face value, and that the man was sunburnt.

Furthermore, since my critics have argued that my description of the man seen by Lawende as fair-haired is incorrect because his head hair might have been of a different colour from his moustache, I would point out that according to the eyewitness testimony, the man who attacked Ada Wilson had both a fair moustache and fair head hair, which is what one would expect.

Evidence is, I suggest, to be taken at face value unless there is reason not to believe it.

I haven't seen fair hair described, only:

From the details of the man's appearance given by Wilson, the following will be found a fairly accurate description of the man:- Aged about 30, height 5 ft. 6 in.; face sunburnt, with fair moustache; dressed in dark coat, light trousers, and wideawake hat. Detective-Inspectors Wildey and Dillworth are looking for him. It is thought impossible that the injured woman can recover.

Facial hair being different to hair is actually common and has a genetic explanation. Google it. As I said before, bury, all of whose main addresses in bow were under a mile from Wilson's address in bow, repeatedly assaulted his wife over money and had dark hair and facial hair inclined to be sandy. Owned a couple of penknives, 30, probs red face through drinking also just been sacked and owed former boss thousands of pounds in today's money.