Stride..a victim?

[Trevor Marriott]

I believe that JTR's MO in general was to conduct a thorough recce of the chosen sites days or even weeks in advance and most of them have certain features in common including dim but passable lighting and, I believe, at least two possible exit routes. In the case of Dutfield's Yard one would have been Berner Street itself and the one that I think he used, into the Yard and over the back wall. I think there is no doubt that he was a fit man and capable of that, or of hopping over one or other of the Hanbury Street fences if necessary. Having chosen a site he would then select an opportunistic target and lead them there (except perhaps the last who, I believe, inadvertently let her killer in.

But that would have meant him loitering in the areas he had selected and then reliant on a victim being able to be picked up in that same location. I doubt picking a victim up in another part of Whitechapel and walking a great distance would be in his best interests. What if his intended victim had been seen and perhaps spoken to by acquaintance en route when she was walking to his intended murder site he could then have been seen and later identified perhaps.

A better explanation might be that some of the women knew the locations where they could take clients.

We do not know who the killer was so your belief in his athletic attributes is pure conjecture

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yep.

Might be known as the Ridgemount Hotel these days. Owned by the Duke of Bedford.

How's she managed to end up living here? I'm guessing she was working as some kind of servant?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'll ask a question though: why is it being said (even by Sugden) that Fanny Mortimer was on her doorstep almost continuously from 12.30 until 1.00?

Because she is quoted as saying that.

She said that she'd heard a policeman's tread just before 12.45.

She is not quoted as saying that.

Smith however says that this occurred 10 minutes earlier. Why is Mortimer believed over a PC on his beat?

Good question! I'll respond with both a question and an answer.

What colour was the flower - red, as noted by Reid, or white, as claimed by Packer?

The reason Mortimer is believed over Smith, is because it pushes Smith's timing forward, so that he returns comfortably after 1am.
The purpose is to save Louis Diemschitz' claim to have turned into Berner street at exactly 1am.
The reason for wanting to do this, is that Louis' 1am arrival can then be used to discredit the arrival times (claimed or inferred) of Spooner (~12:35), Kozebrodsky (~12:40), Heshburg (~12:45), Lamb (~1:00), and Smith (~1:03), and thus set the stage for the Schwartz incident.
Israel Schwartz - a virtual nobody - must be protected from scrutiny.

If Mortimer actually heard Smith when he said that he was there then she was inside her house for 15 minutes?

She was outside before Smith went by, and she was outside after Smith went by.
She was not outside when Smith went by, and missed seeing Stride and parcel man as a consequence.
As Stride is not long after found in the lane, it is logical to suppose that she went into the lane with parcel man, and from there, that the parcel wrapped in newspaper is actually a cutlery bag.

[DJA]

How's she managed to end up living here? I'm guessing she was working as some kind of servant?

Reckon.

[DJA]

How's she managed to end up living here? I'm guessing she was working as some kind of servant?

Oddly enough,the 9th Duke of Bedford who owned the place at that time was married to Lady Elizabeth Sackville-West who's family owned .....



Vita Sackville-West was known for her affair with Virginia Woolf. Woolf was treated by George Savage,Sutton's son in law.

Small world.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. She is not quoted as saying that.

??

She told a reporter for The Evening News:

"....that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat."

[Herlock Sholmes]

. house for 15 minutes?
She was outside before Smith went by, and she was outside after Smith went by

I don't know how your coming to these conclusions?

She heard Smith, she didn't see him, so she was inside the house at the time. She came outside for 10 minutes then went back inside. The next thing she heard was Diemschutz. That's 10 minutes out of 30 by earth maths.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
The reason Mortimer is believed over Smith, is because it pushes Smith's timing forward, so that he returns comfortably after 1am.
The purpose is to save Louis Diemschitz' claim to have turned into Berner street at exactly 1am.
The reason for wanting to do this, is that Louis' 1am arrival can then be used to discredit the arrival times (claimed or inferred) of Spooner (~12:35), Kozebrodsky (~12:40), Heshburg (~12:45), Lamb (~1:00), and Smith (~1:03), and thus set the stage for the Schwartz incident.
Israel Schwartz - a virtual nobody - must be protected from scrutiny.

Ahhh. Back in conspiracy land.

Goodnight

[Herlock Sholmes]

Actually I'll ask one last question would Smith have come into the street from the same direction as Diemschutz?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Wish you would take a long walk on a short pier

I don't suffer idiots @ 2.15am. Especially when compiling tomorrow's food delivery.

If only an idiot would disagree with you, why did you bother posting the links?
Was that for the benefit of the other idiots?

Catechu - Wikipedia

Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia

Henry Gawen Sutton - Wikipedia

[NotBlamedForNothing]

??

She told a reporter for The Evening News:

"....that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat."

Do you remember this?...

But the witness was not being quoted. It was described as a statement she made 'to the effect that...'

A very different beast.

We see it all the time on these boards where direct quotes are not used, so someone's words can be interpreted subjectively as being 'to the effect that... [fill in the blank with something more, er, creative]'.

It's what journalists do, and it's not hard to see it in action anywhere.

Love,

Caz
X

Watch it Caz. Someone will send the men in white coats for you if you persist in using common sense.

We need to be cautious when attributing words to people, on the basis of an apparent paraphrasing of their words by a journalist.
Especially so in this case...

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement.

If this statement is so important, why not quote the woman? Why not name the woman?

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door...

Why does the journalist use the qualifying statement 'It appears that...', when commencing with details from this important statement? Does he not quite believe her?
Perhaps the problem is that he is having difficulty reconciling the statements of certain witnesses, which at face value, are partially conflicting.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't know how your coming to these conclusions?

She heard Smith, she didn't see him, so she was inside the house at the time. She came outside for 10 minutes then went back inside. The next thing she heard was Diemschutz. That's 10 minutes out of 30 by earth maths.

Fanny: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

That 30 minute period may well be subjective - she mentions no clock or timepiece - so the start and end times are also subject to uncertainty.
At face value, however, this is the maths:

30 minutes minus nearly all of 30 minutes = some minutes

It was during some or all of those remaining minutes that Smith went by.

As she doesn't see Smith, Stride, or parcel man, all we can say is that for the period those people are in doorstep visible range, she must be inside.
However, that Fanny probably went to her doorstep after Smith passes, does not preclude her from being on her doorstep before he passes.
This is the maths:

30 minutes minus (some minutes plus 10 minutes) = several minutes

It was during those several minutes that Fanny was on her doorstep, before the passing of Smith and the appearance of Stride and PM.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ahhh. Back in conspiracy land.

Goodnight

No.

You asked why people believed Mortimer over Smith, so I gave my opinion on what people think now, not what the police were thinking then.

If you doubt that knowledgeable people are clinging to preferred beliefs in the face of substantial evidence against, just look at the nonsense trotted out regarding the colour of Stride's flower - and not a hint of protest!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thatīs as fair an answer as anybody could ask for, Frank. I note that Herlock chips in and says that whatever doubt he has are - just as in your case - location-based. As you know, the suspect I have in mind had his mother staying a stoneīs throw away from Berner Street, and he would likewise have had his old watering holes in this exact vicinity. And it was a Saturday night.
Of course, that plays a role in my thinking; if we reason that the killer would have needed to be tipsy to go for a kill in Dutfieldīs Yard, then what we have is a description of a tipsy man having a physical altercation with Stride some little time before she was killed - and a carman who may have done the rounds in the local pubs. To me, it makes perfect sense, but to anybody who has not seen the light ( ), it could of course be another story.

Thanks, anyway, for your post, it was a refreshing read.

There is very little light where I'm standing, Christer. Very little light.
In fact, I would have to say that I'm almost completely in the dark.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Do you remember this?...





We need to be cautious when attributing words to people, on the basis of an apparent paraphrasing of their words by a journalist.
Especially so in this case...

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement.

If this statement is so important, why not quote the woman? Why not name the woman?

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door...

Why does the journalist use the qualifying statement 'It appears that...', when commencing with details from this important statement? Does he not quite believe her?
Perhaps the problem is that he is having difficulty reconciling the statements of certain witnesses, which at face value, are partially conflicting.

So you are attributing more weight to one journalist version over another based on the words "it appears that" which simply means the same as 'according to a witness this is what happened.'