Stride..a victim?

[DJA]

Yes, more likely. Since two sources specify the shop was on the Commercial Road, I would say that that was the direction he was coming from.

Morning Advertiser 2 Oct
"I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street"

Pretty specific.

The Daily Telrgraph 2 Oct

I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street.

Now,Joshua,kindly plot a course from the Crystal Palace area that supports your "baccy" idea.

The Morning Advertiser 2 Oct is however well worth a read for the expert opinions sought.

The experts were Dr Savage,Henry Gawen Sutton's son in law

and

Dr Thomas Stevenson,fellow Shoreditch Vestry Board member.
That board consisted of Stevenson,Sutton and one other.

People who nit pick usually miss the facts.
Not up to your often high standard Joshua.

[DJA]

In reality were they practising Jews? A lot of Jewish shop owners were not

Reference please.

Every Jewish business owner my family has worked for were practicing Jews.One, a restaurant, The Broadway in Camberwell operated without the owners on a Friday night.
Not one was in a "Jewish area",like Berner Street.
Extra holidays and an early Friday knock off in the cooler months.Yahoo!

Incidentally,I grew up with many WW2 Jewish refugees.
Two boarded with us.
An enormous mansion,diagonally opposite our house,acted as a rooming house for Jewish families.My best friend Tom resided there.
I spoke Yiddish as a child.Mum put a stop to that.Irish descent.

[DJA]

That's a confident assertion. Schwartz spoke no English so what we have is a translation by someone whose first language wasn't English either. What word was translated as 'scream' I wonder - and how accurate was the translation?

Prolly start off with "wrzeszczec or krzyczec".

[Joshua Rogan]

The Daily Telrgraph 2 Oct

I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street.

Now,Joshua,kindly plot a course from the Crystal Palace area that supports your "baccy" idea.

People who nit pick usually miss the facts.
Not up to your often high standard Joshua.

It's a fact that the Daily News agreed with the Morning Advertiser account;

"I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road."

If you let Google Maps plot the course it does indeed turn into Berner Street from the North end, where Harris' shop was;

Shared route
From Westow Hill to 40 Henriques St via A215.

2 hr 43 min (8.2 mi)
Avoiding ferries


1. Walk east on Westow Hill/A212/A214 towards Woodland Rd
2. Turn left onto Woodland Rd
3. Turn right towards Gipsy Hill
4. Turn right onto Gipsy Hill
5. Slight left onto Gipsy Rd
6. Turn right onto Alleyn Park
7. Turn right onto Park Hall Rd
8. Continue onto Alleyn Park
9. Turn left onto Thurlow Park Rd/A205
10. Turn right onto Gallery Rd
11. At the roundabout, take the 2nd exit onto Dulwich Village
12. Exit the roundabout onto Dulwich Village
13. Turn right onto Calton Ave
14. Turn left onto Townley Rd
15. Continue onto Green Dale
16. Turn left to stay on Green Dale
17. Turn right onto Blanchedowne
18. Slight left to stay on Blanchedowne
19. Turn left towards Denmark Hill/A215
20. Turn right onto Denmark Hill/A215
21. Slight left to stay on Denmark Hill/A215
22. Turn right towards Elephant Square
23. Slight right towards Elephant Square
24. Turn right towards Elephant Square
25. Slight left towards Elephant Square
26. Slight right onto Elephant Square
27. Turn right onto Elephant and Castle
28. Turn left onto Newington Causeway/A3
29. Turn right onto Great Dover St/A2
30. Cross the road
31. Turn right onto Borough High St/A3
32. Slight left to stay on Borough High St/A3
33. Arrive at location: London Bridge
34. Walk north on Borough High St/London Bridge/A3
35. Turn left towards King William St/London Bridge/A3
36. Turn right towards King William St/London Bridge/A3
37. Sharp right onto King William St/London Bridge/A3
38. Turn right onto Eastcheap/A10/A1213
39. Turn left onto Philpot Ln
40. Turn right onto Fenchurch St
41. Continue onto Aldgate
42. Continue onto Aldgate High St/A1211
43. Continue onto Whitechapel High St/A11
44. Turn right onto Leman St/A1202
45. Turn left onto New Drum St
46. Turn right onto Commercial Rd/A13
47. Turn right onto Henriques St
48. Arrive at location: 40 Henriques St
To see this route visit https://maps.app.goo.gl/N2MVB2SVb1X2VnoT7

[DJA]

Copied is the word you seek.

If he took his pony cart via Tower Bridge it would be safer and not much in it time wise.

[Joshua Rogan]

Copied is the word you seek.

If he took his pony cart via Tower Bridge it would be safer and not much in it time wise.

I doubt it would have been safer and would certainly have taken longer, since Tower Bridge was still under construction in 1888 and wouldn't be completed for several more years.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I take it we're down the conspiracy rabbit-hole again?

When Interruptionists are reduced to trotting out generic arguments like this, I think it's fair to say progress is being made

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That's the thing though, there isn't 'evidence', because an interruption wouldn't leave physical evidence. Without the killer actually stating the fact, no one knows.

The lack of evidence cannot, or at least should not, be taken as proof that interruption couldn't have happened. It's a flawed argument.

The interruption theory rests on Louis' arrival, or that's certainly long been the accepted case. That can be argued, absolutely. Other times, witnesses, yes, we can create a different picture. But just saying 'prove it' when looking at an interruption isn't good enough. It's fundamentally unprovable without knowing the killer and his actions, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.

Well, that's how I see it.

I'm surprised that no Interruptionist has called on Fanny Mortimer, for support...

I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible.

Perhaps this is the problem...

Mortimer: The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets.

Blackwell: I saw no grapes or grape stems in the yard when I was called to see the body.

That could send us down a conspiracy theorist rabbit hole.

This might be a bit of an issue too...

Mortimer: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

I guess Liz must have whispered those screams.

[DJA]

I doubt it would have been safer and would certainly have taken longer, since Tower Bridge was still under construction in 1888 and wouldn't be completed for several more years.

Tower Subway.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That's a confident assertion. Schwartz spoke no English so what we have is a translation by someone whose first language wasn't English either. What word was translated as 'scream' I wonder - and how accurate was the translation?

Who originally asserted that Schwartz spoke no English, and how did that person know it to be the case?

Was the translator a friend or associate of Schwartz, in which case their claim that he spoke no English, is dubious at best.

If the the translator were a neutral person, supplied by the police, then the claim must have come from Schwartz himself, and is therefore dubious at best.

I think it worth considering what a tremendous advantage it would have been to Schwartz, to be able to speak to Abberline via a translator.

[DJA]

I take it we're down the conspiracy rabbit-hole again?

[Herlock Sholmes]

When Interruptionists are reduced to trotting out generic arguments like this, I think it's fair to say progress is being made

And when a poster uses a phrase like 'interruptionist' about a poster who, even in this thread, has expressed a level of doubt as to whether Stride was s ripper victim or not I tend to see someone trying to stoke controversy for its own sake. Especially when the poster making the accusation is the one who claimed that Amelia Richardson was running a brothel from the cellar at number 29 Hanbury Street.

As I've said before there's nothing wrong with exploring all angles but we shouldn't confuse opinion for fact. I know that you have an aversion to plausibility but the suggestion that the ripper might have been interrupted is plausible. It might or might not be true but you can't dismiss something on the 'too good to be true' basis.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm surprised that no Interruptionist has called on Fanny Mortimer, for support...

I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible.

Perhaps this is the problem...

Mortimer: The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets.

Blackwell: I saw no grapes or grape stems in the yard when I was called to see the body.

That could send us down a conspiracy theorist rabbit hole.

This might be a bit of an issue too...

Mortimer: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

I guess Liz must have whispered those screams.

Or the problem might be the use of the word 'screamed.' Especially when coupled with 'not very loudly?'

The important part is 'not very loudly.' As in 'of low volume.' As in 'of a volume that not everyone would have heard.'

As ever you create a mystery without accepting at least the possibility of a very simple explanation.

[Michael W Richards]

The fact that Israel is not a part of any Inquest on anything doesnt bother many folks....and that for me is ASTOUNDING. IF TRUE his story is the most pertinent story in the whole investigation.

Nevertheless... on Louis's arrival time, is it really feasible that Issac Kozebrodski, who was summoned back out after just arriving back to the club at 12:30, was wrong about the time by a little over 20 minutes? Is it really plausible that 4 witness stating a time they were by the body, with Louis and others, all matched in detail and timing were wrong by 20 minutes? Did anyone see when Louis arrived? If he and Eagle did leave for help just after 1...which to me is very possible, then the 2 men Spooner meets do not include Louis, (actions which according to Spooner, Kozebrodski, Gillen and Heschberg must have been around 12:40-45), and the body was discovered 15 to 20 minutes before 1am. Which would raise the ethical problems with Louis and Eagle not going themselves for help for that long.

It seems a few men were out seeking help during that time, 2 men meet with Spooner...and Issac K says he went to seek help himself at the request of Louis, "or some other member".

All of this transpires while Liz Stride is still live and being manhandled off premises in front of the gates by a likely anti-Semitic gentile thug while another pipe smoking fellow watches on? Read the statements of everyone that was in that immediate area between 12:30 and 1am. No-one saw anyone....deserted, empty, quiet,...the only people seen during that time are the young couple and Goldstein. So how is it that Liz can be dying inside the passageway at 12:40-12:45 (reasonable match with Blackwells earliest cut time and easily within Phillips), and yet still be wrestling out in front of the club with people that no-one sees. Not Lave, not Eagle, not Fanny, not James Brown. Just the young couple and the black bag handler in that half hour.

Fanny has confirmation from Brown on the young couple, and from Goldstein when he comes in on Tuesday. They validate what she says she saw. She was at her door from 12:50 until just after 1.....and she did not see or hear any cart or horse during that 10 minutes. Louis provably did not arrive at 1.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, more likely. Since two sources specify the shop was on the Commercial Road, I would say that that was the direction he was coming from.

Morning Advertiser 2 Oct
"I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street"

Pretty specific.

Same from the Illustrated Police News, Oct 6:

I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.

The only reference to a clock prior to the inquest, seems to be in the Echo, and the reference is auditory, not visual:

The steward of the International and Educational Club reached the gate just as the clock struck one. "It was very dark," he said. "There is no light near here, and the darkness is consequently much more intense between these two walls" - pointing to the walls of the Club and a house on the other side of the yard- "than out in the street. The gate was pushed back, and the wheel of my cart bumped against something. I struck a match to see what it was, but the wind blew it out. However, the flash was enough to show me that the person was on the ground either asleep or dead.

This must have been one of Louis' earliest interviews, as at this stage the cart crashes into the victim, rather than him stopping to prod with his whip handle.
Obviously the cart crash would have visibly injured the victim, if true, whereas the whip handle prodding story has the huge advantage of being plausible.

However, even this was not the original story. There is another story which preceded this, and made it into the press, before being jettisoned in favor of the pony & cart story. Irish Times:

About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her sidein the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises. The gate which is a large wooden one, was partly opened, and the woman lying partly in the opening and on the street. He immediately roused the neighbours, and by the aid of a candle it was seen that the woman's throat was cut open very nearly from one ear to the other, and her lips were drawn up as if she had suffered sharp pain. She was dressed in black and appeared to be in mourning. She wore a black bonnet, elastic sided boots, and dark stockings. To her breast was a small bouquet of flowers, and in her left hand she had a small packet of scented cachous.

Although this story was dispensed with early on, remnants of it remained, and there can be no doubt that this Joseph Koster was real.

Lewis, who is now found to have been on the spot rather than Koster, is the steward at the Socialist Club at No. 40...

Heshberg: The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow...