Stride..a victim?

[caz]

I wouldn't say an internally interrupted killer returning to the scene was "zero risk". Times elapsed. He doesn't know if she's been found, if people are about etc. He could casually walk by to have a look, but without knowing what's happening, he risks placing himself at the scene where previously he was unseen. He could be apprehended, questioned, accused. Essentially, he'd have to get far enough away from the scene to avoid apprehension in the event of discovery, and take (how long?) to mentally stabilise, all in the belief that the street has remained totally quiet. There's a degree of risk at least.

I agree entirely.

Once spooked [for whatever reason and at whatever point] I can't see any killer being too keen to return to the scene, whether he ever planned to mutilate in that location or not. If this was the ripper [and please, people, note the 'if'], something about Stride or the location put him off, and he left the scene without hanging about. I've been asked before why he didn't just go, and let Stride live, but the man was a murderer after all. He was armed with a knife and had no qualms about using it on a defenceless woman. Why wouldn't he have cut and run in such circumstances, if things weren't going all his way this time?

Love,

Caz
X

[Prosector]

Yes, I think they could be from thumb marks where the thumbs formed the fulcra for the fingers (either middle and index finger or middle and ring finger) to press in medial (towards the midline) to the sternomastoid muscles to find the carotid arteries.

[DJA]

So they would be central.Have the diagram.
Most would be thinking further apart.
Thanks.

[Abby Normal]

The trouble with posts like this when a new topic starts to go haywire is that there very rapidly become so many that it is impossible to reply to individual ones before becoming buried under the avalanche. With regards to the bruising, not just to Stride, but to others also, I believe that JTR must have been able to incapacitate his victims and cause them to lose consciousness before severing the carotid arteries (except in the case of MJK who fought back) and I think that this was probably by pressure on the carotid sinuses (or possibly just one) at the base of the neck and if that was done with the middle and ring fingers, the thumb, which would have been used as a fulcrum, would leave a bruise quite unlike that caused by strangulation. In the case of carotid pressure the bruise would most likely be just below the clavicle. In strangulation it is usually at the back of the neck or shoulders. I don't believe that anyone, then or now, would be able to occlude the subclavian arteries by direct pressure below the clavicles (they are not palpable there, only in the armpits). The problem with carotid sinus pressure (which is taught to Special Forces today) is that it is very chancy and difficult and, in 1888, you would have had to have had a great deal of specialised anatomical knowledge, or have practiced on a lot of people to be sure of it working. Medical students right up to the present day have sometimes practiced this on each other to induce temporary unconsciousness as a bit of a party trick and I believe that this practice did also exist in Victorian times. Craig and his father specialised in carotid massage for therapeutic purposes and wrote a pamphlet about it (it's in the British Library) although recognising that it could be dangerous. Someone mentioned about casing the murder sites beforehand. Craig was almost certainly at a lecture given by William Morris, who he knew well, at the Working Men's Educational Institute earlier the same week.
Prosector

also known as a blood choke (in MMA )we used to do when we were kids. you would pass out within 15 seconds.
thanks prosector your medical knowledge is much appreciated here!

[Abby Normal]

Put together a collection of plausible suspects.
Go through the list, considering each one in turn to be the Ripper.
Try to prove the guilt of each candidate to oneself for some period, or until the case for falls apart (and is crossed off the list).
Keep going through the list, and chipping away at suspects until only one remains.
However, there is an important caveat at this point; the last man standing must be wearing a peaked cap. LOL

thanks but your numerous posts seem to point to something much more specific and complicated. and re your last sentence... then that would be chapman, theres even a pic of him wearing one, with knife no less! but yes you would probably be well served to recognize the ripper wore a peaked cap the night of the double event, probably chapmans murder too. it certainly made an impression on Abberline, probably the most astute police officer on the case. ill go with Abberline.

[DJA]

also known as a blood choke (in MMA )we used to do when we were kids. you would pass out within 15 seconds.

User name further explained

Don't mind us.

[Abby Normal]

User name further explained

Don't mind us.

lol. ive done so much stupid **** its a minor miracle im still alive

[DJA]

Me two

Lucky to have made it to 30,let alone into my 70s.

[DJA]

Yes, I think they could be from thumb marks where the thumbs formed the fulcra for the fingers (either middle and index finger or middle and ring finger) to press in medial (towards the midline) to the sternomastoid muscles to find the carotid arteries.

Regarding Eddowes,I believe Jack autopsied her right inguinal lymph nodes.
Having taken her uterus,perhaps she was a cancer patient.

Found a lady that fits her age in London Hospital with Rheumatic fever from December 1867.
Jack took part of Eddowes nose off and marked both maxillary sinuses with chevron cuts.
Entry points for Strep pyogenes?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree entirely.

Once spooked [for whatever reason and at whatever point] I can't see any killer being too keen to return to the scene, whether he ever planned to mutilate in that location or not. If this was the ripper [and please, people, note the 'if'], something about Stride or the location put him off, and he left the scene without hanging about. I've been asked before why he didn't just go, and let Stride live, but the man was a murderer after all. He was armed with a knife and had no qualms about using it on a defenceless woman. Why wouldn't he have cut and run in such circumstances, if things weren't going all his way this time?

Love,

Caz
X

Why wouldn't he have been spooked by the presence of Israel Schwartz and Pipeman, and immediately leave the scene?

Why wouldn't he have been spooked by Stride's three soft screams, which could have alerted others in the neighborhood?

Why wouldn't he have been spooked by his own clumsy yelling of 'Lipski!'.

He doesn't seem a spookable type of character.

Or was he not the killer? In which case, when does he arrive on the scene?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

With regards to the bruising, not just to Stride, but to others also, I believe that JTR must have been able to incapacitate his victims and cause them to lose consciousness before severing the carotid arteries (except in the case of MJK who fought back) and I think that this was probably by pressure on the carotid sinuses (or possibly just one) at the base of the neck and if that was done with the middle and ring fingers, the thumb, which would have been used as a fulcrum, would leave a bruise quite unlike that caused by strangulation. In the case of carotid pressure the bruise would most likely be just below the clavicle.

So at what point did this occur?

Dr Blackwell: The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight.

Any theory of Stride's murder, has to account for the totality of the physical evidence.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

thanks but your numerous posts seem to point to something much more specific and complicated. and re your last sentence... then that would be chapman, theres even a pic of him wearing one, with knife no less! but yes you would probably be well served to recognize the ripper wore a peaked cap the night of the double event, probably chapmans murder too. it certainly made an impression on Abberline, probably the most astute police officer on the case. ill go with Abberline.

Drips and drabs, dear Abs.

"...I cannot help feeling that this was the man we struggled so hard to capture fifteen years ago."

Wasn't that feeling based in part on Elizabeth Long's eye-witnessing?
Are you sure you've picked the right cop?

"...Scotland Yard is really no wiser on the subject than it was fifteen years ago."

That's because you George, interviewed the man at length, and didn't realize who you were talking to!
Interview with a Ripper - I've got the name for my movie!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A touch of dyslexia. Sorry Fred!

[Michael W Richards]

I agree entirely.

Once spooked [for whatever reason and at whatever point] I can't see any killer being too keen to return to the scene, whether he ever planned to mutilate in that location or not. If this was the ripper [and please, people, note the 'if'], something about Stride or the location put him off, and he left the scene without hanging about. I've been asked before why he didn't just go, and let Stride live, but the man was a murderer after all. He was armed with a knife and had no qualms about using it on a defenceless woman. Why wouldn't he have cut and run in such circumstances, if things weren't going all his way this time?

Love,

Caz
X

The killer had up until then been brazen enough to kill and start mutilating on the sidewalk, and there is absolutely no physical evidence that anything was interrupted, so that argument is pretty weak Caz. Thats pure supposition, whereas stating that, by the physical and circumstantial evidence, Liz Strides killer ran a knife under her chin..likely while holding her with her twisted scarf, is far more than guesswork. And then? Nothing. No evidence at all that anything further was contemplated or initiated.

And there is ample evidence that the killer in late August-early September killed with the intent of mutilation once the victim was incapacitated. Liz seems incapacitated doesnt she? And according to witness testimony no-one from around 12:40 until 1am is in that alley.

Well, we know thats not true, dont we. At least Liz and her killer are there. And according to 4 people, so were a few others...including Louis.

[Aelric]

What evidence would there be assuming the interruption hypothesis is true?
'