Stride..a victim?

[Fisherman]

You must be holding the hologram too still. Try moving it around a bit.

Did that a looong time ago. If there is one thing I never forget to do, itīs always to look at things from all angles.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

the final straw that she was a ripper victim is peaked cap man

I decided to recheck the descriptions, to see if Abby's confidence in the peaked cap was justified.


Schwartz' First Man

throw down man / broad-shouldered man: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

quarrel man / tipsy man (The Star): about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat.


Church Passage Man

Times: of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak.

Swanson: age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.


SFM and CPM are both about 30.

SFM and CPM both have a fair complexion.

SFM is stout and quite short. CPM is average height and medium build.

SFM and CPM both have a moustache, probably small. SFM's is brown, CPM's is fair.

SFM wears a dark jacket and trousers. CPM has a salt & pepper jacket.

SFM has a black cap with peak, or felt hat. CPM has a grey cap with peak, probably cloth.

SFM wears nothing around his neck. CPM wears a red/reddish neckerchief.

SFM is dressed respectably. CPM has a shabby and/or sailor-like appearance.

Overall, seems quite a good match, although for CPM to also be SFM, he must have changed his jacket and put on the distinctive neckerchief. Quarrel man's hat is felt, but no peak is mentioned. CPM might look a little odd wearing his S&P jacket with SFM's dark trousers.

[Abby Normal]

I decided to recheck the descriptions, to see if Abby's confidence in the peaked cap was justified.


Schwartz' First Man

throw down man / broad-shouldered man: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

quarrel man / tipsy man (The Star): about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat.


Church Passage Man

Times: of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak.

Swanson: age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.


SFM and CPM are both about 30.

SFM and CPM both have a fair complexion.

SFM is stout and quite short. CPM is average height and medium build.

SFM and CPM both have a moustache, probably small. SFM's is brown, CPM's is fair.

SFM wears a dark jacket and trousers. CPM has a salt & pepper jacket.

SFM has a black cap with peak, or felt hat. CPM has a grey cap with peak, probably cloth.

SFM wears nothing around his neck. CPM wears a red/reddish neckerchief.

SFM is dressed respectably. CPM has a shabby and/or sailor-like appearance.

Overall, seems quite a good match, although for CPM to also be SFM, he must have changed his jacket and put on the distinctive neckerchief. Quarrel man's hat is felt, but no peak is mentioned. CPM might look a little odd wearing his S&P jacket with SFM's dark trousers.

hey not.
they were the same man.. the ripper. btw they are called broad shouldered man and sailor man. lol

also, right around the time after stride was murdered there was another sighting on church street of peaked cap man, wiping his hands and looking suspicious.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Maybe you should have mentioned a surface slope to him Fish.

The slope is only one of several variables.

From Dr. Phillips mortuary note:

Mud on face and left side of the head. Matted on the hair and left side.
Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud.

I will also need to know how much mud to put on the ground to mimic all the mud that must covered Dutfield's Yard that night.
However, in that case the blood seems to have flowed over the mud quiet easily, so I really don't think it will make much difference. ha ha

[NotBlamedForNothing]

hey not.
they were the same man.. the ripper.

So Abs, why didn't the man change his cap to a hat, as well as changing his jacket and putting on the neckerchief?
Seems like he wanted to alter his appearance, and for good reason - he'd been seen manhandling Stride. So why be half-hearted about it?
If it were me, I'd be putting on all sorts of odd stuff and maybe even some makeup. Seriously, I would. In fact I would probably end up looking like someone who was in the theatrical trade.

btw they are called broad shouldered man and sailor man. lol

Not anymore Abs. I don't like those names - they aren't distinctive enough. Broad shoulders are too common. I have them myself. Seriously, I do - but I ain't never thrown a woman down on a footway. So Throw Down Man it is from now on. Do you understand, dear Abs?
Sailor Man has to go to, Abs. All the nice girls love a sailor, and that's cause he's a gentleman, and probably fit and healthy. Nothing wrong with saying hello to a sailor, Abs, but the man with Kate at the end of the passage is a nasty piece of work, so let's not give him a nice friendly name, okay? Am I making myself clear, dear Abs?

also, right around the time after stride was murdered there was another sighting on church street of peaked cap man, wiping his hands and looking suspicious.

Thanks Abs, I will reacquaint myself with this individual.

[Abby Normal]

So Abs, why didn't the man change his cap to a hat, as well as changing his jacket and putting on the neckerchief?
Seems like he wanted to alter his appearance, and for good reason - he'd been seen manhandling Stride. So why be half-hearted about it?
If it were me, I'd be putting on all sorts of odd stuff and maybe even some makeup. Seriously, I would. In fact I would probably end up looking like someone who was in the theatrical trade.



Not anymore Abs. I don't like those names - they aren't distinctive enough. Broad shoulders are too common. I have them myself. Seriously, I do - but I ain't never thrown a woman down on a footway. So Throw Down Man it is from now on. Do you understand, dear Abs?
Sailor Man has to go to, Abs. All the nice girls love a sailor, and that's cause he's a gentleman, and probably fit and healthy. Nothing wrong with saying hello to a sailor, Abs, but the man with Kate at the end of the passage is a nasty piece of work, so let's not give him a nice friendly name, okay? Am I making myself clear, dear Abs?



Thanks Abs, I will reacquaint myself with this individual.

whats your new name for Astrakhan Man?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

whats your new name for Astrakhan Man?

Based on his description, I suggest "Daddy Superfly".

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I'm surprised Hutch didn't describe the Funk music that was obviously playing as Daddy Superfly went pimpin' it down Dorset St.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

whats your new name for Astrakhan Man?

If every third or fourth man wore an astrakhan trimmed coat, then that moniker would not be ideal, and we might be better calling him Gold Chain Man.
However, his coat seems to be a unique identifier across the case, so the current name is fine.
On the other hand, how many men wore peaked caps?

Another thing about these identities wearing a peaked cap, is that the change in appearance seems to be in the wrong order.
The Berner St man seems to be quite well dressed in all black, whereas the Duke St man looks shabby.
I could well be wrong about this, but would not the geo-demographics (not sure if that is a real term), lead us to suppose that a man trying to 'fit in', would go from shabby to respectable, rather than the opposite?
Also, on the first occasion, the man with the better appearance acts thuggishly - on the second, he talks quietly. This is another incongruity.

I don't like the moniker 'broad-shouldered man', because it is too generic.
The most memorable thing about this man is that he throws the woman down onto the footway.
Schwartz' first man in the Star account does not throw her, but he does quarrel, which supports the notion that he and the woman know each other.
The best signifiers are therefore Throw Down Man, and Quarrel Man. These names are contrasting, whereas 'BS Man' is not.
You've also got to think about the connotations of 'BS Man' - a reminder to some of us that Israel Schwartz was full of it.

Regarding the man wiping his hands in Church Lane, I read this short thread - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...use-of-eddowes
The man is discussed, starting at #6.
As you say, 'about half-past one' is vague, but on the other hand, 1:35 is just as 'about 1:30' as is 1:25 - your point applies in both directions.

[Michael W Richards]

I think the one interesting thing about Astrakan Man is why Hutch chose to create such a character. I think its likely because he may have been trying to implicate someone specific. The fiction that is Astrakan is by far a pale second to the fact that a man who claimed to know Mary Kelly personally would wait 4 days, until after the Inquest, to give a description that if accurate and given in a timely manner would have most assuredly assisted the police.

If his premise was actually to help the Police find her killer.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think the one interesting thing about Astrakan Man is why Hutch chose to create such a character.

For the same reason BS Man was created.
McCarthy feared of the closure of 'McCarthy's Rents', if the police suspected he or one of his staff were the culprit.
So he came up with a little plan, and payed a poor fellow to tell a story to Inspector Abberline, and get him off the hook.
John was slow coming up with his plan, compared to Woolf Wess, but it did the trick.

Not sure if I'm being serious.

[DJA]

It has been ~ 40 days since the double event.
Suspect Mary Kelly is 6 weeks behind ie 27/- not 29.
McCarthy alerts Jack that Barnett has moved out.
Blotchy confirms the coast is clear and slips Mary a Mickey Finn.
Sailorman Hutchinson is the lookout.
No A man.That is a cover for Mary being out to it.
Jack strikes.
Mary's body goes to the Shoreditch Vestry Board mortuary whose sexton ensures there is not a second inquest.
The end.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It has been ~ 40 days since the double event.
Suspect Mary Kelly is 6 weeks behind ie 27/- not 29.

You suspect a lot of things.
Why would Kelly and Barnett suddenly stop paying any rent, and continue to pay zilch until 6 weeks in arrears?
What change in circumstance could have caused this?

Supposing that the fall behind commences soon after Barnett loses his fish porters licence, would seem to make much more sense.
It's also compatible with Kelly being behind an odd amount (not divisible by the weekly rent).

[DJA]

You suspect a lot of things.
Why would Kelly and Barnett suddenly stop paying any rent, and continue to pay zilch until 6 weeks in arrears?
What change in circumstance could have caused this?

Supposing that the fall behind commences soon after Barnett loses his fish porters licence, would seem to make much more sense.
It's also compatible with Kelly being behind an odd amount (not divisible by the weekly rent).

Barnett lost his fish porter's license over 12 weeks before he moved out.

I might politely "suspect" scenarios based on facts.

You post a stream of B.S.

Sort of qualifies you as A Man.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

How's that Sutton dissertation coming along?